How We Learned to Kill • Hacker News Board

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#11

Post by huj123 » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 9:29 PM UTC

>I focused on lessons I had learned reading Lt. Col. Dave Grossman’s book “On Killing,”

Dave Grossman reportedly cites someone named S. L. A. Marshall who made the claim that only a small percentage of infantry ever fired their weapons, to support the idea that most people have some natural reluctance to kill in battle. I just want to point out that there is zero evidence for this claim: https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2014/12/28/shoot-to-kill/

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#12

Post by woodman » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 9:32 PM UTC

It is always an interesting experience when you recognize a little of your old self in somebody else, projection is really tempting. My head was in the same place almost ten years ago, after Fallujah - the end justifies the means. That is pretty much what the final two paragraphs say - yeah it is shitty, but the end justifies the means. This is a big step beyond "They hate us for our freedoms!", but still falls short of acknowledging the fact that a universally preferable end state isn't likely to be reached through violence or threats of violence. I wouldn't be surprised if the Captain Kudo eventually arrives at that conclusion.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#13

Post by transfire » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 9:33 PM UTC

Imagine if we took the commandment "Thou shall not kill" to heart. Imagine if instead of killing those men on the roadside, it was the job to the soldiers to incapacitate them but take them alive. Is it possible? Of course it is possible. Perhaps harder, but possible.

Here's the funny thing about killing. Somehow we continually find excuses for doing it. And the easiest excuse of all is that the other guy did it first. And so it goes round and round and never stops, forever escalating. And it won't stop, until we stop making excuses.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#14

Post by maxerickson » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 9:35 PM UTC

transfire wrote: post #13

Imagine if we took the commandment "Thou shall not kill" to heart. Imagine if instead of killing those men on the roadside, it was the job to the soldiers to incapacitate them but take them alive. Is it possible? Of course it is possible. Perhaps harder, but possible. Here's the funny thing about killing. Somehow we continually find excuses for doing it. And the easiest excuse of all is that the other guy did it firs…

Most people have not killed anyone.

(This is probably more true for people alive today than it is for all humans that have ever lived)

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#15

Post by 001sky » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 9:45 PM UTC

huj123 wrote: post #11

>I focused on lessons I had learned reading Lt. Col. Dave Grossman’s book “On Killing,” Dave Grossman reportedly cites someone named S. L. A. Marshall who made the claim that only a small percentage of infantry ever fired their weapons, to support the idea that most people have some natural reluctance to kill in battle. I just want to point out that there is zero evidence for this claim: https://westhunt.wordpress.co…

This link is annecdotal gibberish.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#16

Post by huj123 » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 9:57 PM UTC

001sky wrote: post #15

huj123 wrote: post #11

>I focused on lessons I had learned reading Lt. Col. Dave Grossman’s book “On Killing,” Dave Grossman reportedly cites someone named S. L. A. Marshall who made the claim that only a small percentage of infantry ever fired their weapons, to support the idea that most people have some natural reluctance to kill in battle. I just want to point out that there is zero evidence for this claim: https://westhunt.wordpress.co…

This link is annecdotal gibberish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.L.A._Marshall#Controversy_af...

People have looked for the evidence for his claim but can't find it. I've had people repeat the claim to me and cite Grossman or Marshall, but when I asked them to give a specific source for it they couldn't.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#17

Post by eloff » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 10:01 PM UTC

darkhorn wrote: post #7

eloff wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has previously contemplated false flag missions against it's own people (see operation Northwoods[1] which was rejected by JFK.) However, there's no evidence that they were behind the 9/11 attacks. Spouting conspiracy theories without serious backup is going to get you down-voted here on HN where we pride ourselves on being less gullible than average. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

There are evidences http://www.ae911truth.org/gallery/evidence.html Also listen to Susan Lindauer.

Now look at the evidence against. You can't cherry pick the few things that agree with your world-view, you need to take an unbiased, scientific approach where you consider all possibilities with the evidence (and likelihoods) both for and against. When weighed against the rest of the evidence, it just doesn't hold up. Remember, a good scientist doesn't look for evidence confirming his theory, which is often available even for incorrect theories. They look at all the evidence and see if it leads to the same conclusion.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#18

Post by entrop13 » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 10:06 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #14

transfire wrote: post #13

Imagine if we took the commandment "Thou shall not kill" to heart. Imagine if instead of killing those men on the roadside, it was the job to the soldiers to incapacitate them but take them alive. Is it possible? Of course it is possible. Perhaps harder, but possible. Here's the funny thing about killing. Somehow we continually find excuses for doing it. And the easiest excuse of all is that the other guy did it firs…

Most people have not killed anyone. (This is probably more true for people alive today than it is for all humans that have ever lived)

It's true that as society progresses it off loads the killing work onto fewer people - executioners, soldiers, drones, etc. These killings are presumably justified by the will of the larger society otherwise these men wouldn't be paid to do this. So a smaller part of the population does an increasing porportion of the killing, but does the overall number of people killed decrease?

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#19

Post by warmwaffles » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 10:09 PM UTC

darkhorn wrote: post #3

9/11 was an inside job. So, the war in Afghanistan was unnecessary for the USA. The real terrorists are Bush administration who killed 9/11 victims and US soldiers who killed Afghan children.

Go read Ghost Wars http://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Wars-Afghanistan-Invasion-Septem... and come back with a better understanding of the shit storm that is in that region. All of the conflict over there dates back to before the 70's. Well before the Bush administration.

Re: How We Learned to Kill

#20

Post by xvedejas » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 10:13 PM UTC

transfire wrote: post #13

Imagine if we took the commandment "Thou shall not kill" to heart. Imagine if instead of killing those men on the roadside, it was the job to the soldiers to incapacitate them but take them alive. Is it possible? Of course it is possible. Perhaps harder, but possible. Here's the funny thing about killing. Somehow we continually find excuses for doing it. And the easiest excuse of all is that the other guy did it firs…

Well, when it comes to firearms, incapacitation doesn't work quite like the movies show. You can't just hit someone in the arm/leg every time (aiming is harder than that), and even if you do it will fairly likely kill them anyway. If you really want to priorize incapacitating enemy soldiers, you're going to have to use different weapons than firearms, weapons that are probably shorter range and slower. That isn't a practical option when the enemy soldiers have guns themselves.

I'm all for peace but telling your own soldiers not to kill could be a very good way to get many of your own soldiers killed.