New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program • Hacker News Board

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#21

Post by cubano » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 3:45 AM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #4

[deleted] wrote: post #2

[deleted]

> Find me any company that doesn't have a difficult time sourcing well-qualified Rails developers, or experienced JavaScript experts. There is huge demand, not enough supply If any of that were true, wages would be going up, wouldn't they? Is there any company that couldn't hire someone by paying higher wages? Why are developer wages absolutely flat? I find that the supply of brain surgeons for $10,000/year is quite…

> If any of that were true, wages would be going up, wouldn't they? Is there any company that couldn't hire someone by paying higher wages? Why are developer wages absolutely flat?

This is an excellent point, and to add injury to this obvious insult to the IT developer class is the fact that corporate profits are through the roof [1] these days and have, in fact, been growing for years.

Any free, non-manipulated labor market will always reward the workers with needed skills a higher wage to attract talent needed to keep the companies products competitive and the management looking good.

It seems to me, at least, beyond obvious that corporations are using programs like the H-1B, the elimination of positions for developers over the age of 40, and pressure on managers to keep IT workers fearful of losing their jobs to artificially keep wages down.

[1] http://qz.com/192725/what-another-record-year-of-corporate-p...

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#22

Post by coldtea » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 3:49 AM UTC

bdcravens wrote: post #16

coldtea wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the author here claims that "H-1B is not about skills or skills gap" and cites as evidence the fact that the vast majority of the approved applicants have only a Bachelor's degree. Perhaps he's not familiar with the current state of the software engineering market, where an advanced degree is in no way a prerequisite to become a top-rated engineer? Sure, you can be a great developer with just a Bachelor degree…

I don't even have a bachelor's degree, and I've been a developer since 1998.

Yeah, perhaps that's why I wrote: "Sure, you can be a great developer with just a Bachelor degree or even no degree.".

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#23

Post by cubano » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 3:50 AM UTC

swatow wrote: post #15

Potando wrote: post #12

It's strange how action which has apparently helped to lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty is portrayed as a "scandal". There's clearly a big labor pool willing to work for lower pay than Americans. Give them a chance at a better life! If Californians dislike foreign workers so much, why are they still allowing people from the midwest to work there? Shouldn't they be throttled too to keep wag…

Free market economics is often intentionally misunderstood because it doesn't fit into anyone's ideologies. The left ignore the benefits of the free market, and pretend that there is a better system out there. They selfishly expect workers the developing world to respect the "right" of the Western middle class to high wages, as if magically other opportunities that don't involve competing with the Western middle clas…

> The right want people to think that capitalism is magic, because they don't even want redistribution, which mainstream economists believe is something the market cannot do itself, and must be done by the government.

The "government" is nothing but a collection of people who have used political acumen, and not technical or business skills, to gain control of a system.

They are really no different from the executives whom control various Fortune 500 companies, so in the long run, it seems unlikely that they will behave in a different matter, or ever put your wants and desires above theirs.

At least market-based systems, as described by Hayek, have some built in incentives to reward those in power to keep those without it happy.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#24

Post by Zikes » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 3:51 AM UTC

martinald wrote: post #14

I find it difficult to understand why these companies would go to such lengths to save at absolute most 15-20% on salary. Even if there were no legal or immigration costs (which there definitely is), it seems to me they could easily do the same by getting someone from a less prosperous part of the US and moving them to, say, CA. I'm sure this happens all the time.

H-1B is intended to be temporary, 3-6 years. That means no need for pensions and no time to accumulate a great deal of raises or benefits.

I would also imagine it's a lot easier to convince an employee to "go the extra mile" when you're dangling their ability to remain in the country over their head, especially if they're also applying for citizenship.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#25

Post by coldtea » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 3:52 AM UTC

Potando wrote: post #12

It's strange how action which has apparently helped to lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty is portrayed as a "scandal". There's clearly a big labor pool willing to work for lower pay than Americans. Give them a chance at a better life! If Californians dislike foreign workers so much, why are they still allowing people from the midwest to work there? Shouldn't they be throttled too to keep wag…

>It's strange how action which has apparently helped to lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty is portrayed as a "scandal".

Maybe because it was not intended to "lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty" but to "lower or keep the same american developer wages"?

As if those US business owners give a rats arse about getting "poor Indian workers out of poverty".

If those guys are so concerned about "poor Indians developers" how about paying them exactly the same as any American developer? It's not like they have a lower cost of living when they come to the US. So, do they consider them sub-human or something?

Or maybe they are more concerned for the "I can exploit their poorness relative to our domestic wage demands and screw me fellow country-men".

Oh, and it works both ways: next time some other country with cheaper wages than India developers a decent-ish IT education, those "poor Indian developers" would be dropped like dead weights in a race to the bottom...

>If Californians dislike foreign workers so much, why are they still allowing people from the midwest to work there? Shouldn't they be throttled too to keep wages high in silicon valley?

Perhaps because of this thing called patriotism, a.k.a. "do not piss where you live"...

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#26

Post by ubernostrum » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 3:56 AM UTC

geebee wrote: post #3

[deleted] wrote: post #2

[deleted]

"Find me any company that doesn't have a difficult time sourcing well-qualified Rails developers, or experienced JavaScript experts. There is huge demand, not enough supply" My problems with this statement is that you didn't mention pay or working conditions. Are they hiring for general talent, offering 200k a year with a nice private office? Are they offering 100k, forcing people to work in a loud open office where…

A good analogy is the so-called "pilot shortage" among US-based airlines.

There are plenty of pilots around; there just aren't enough pilots anymore who are willing to work for the wages and conditions that exist at the entry level of those airlines. A common figure I've seen quoted is that the education, training and certification required to become an airline pilot comes in around $250,000 total, while the starting salary is often $20,000 or less.

In an ironic inversion of the H-1B debate, apparently foreign airlines in rapidly-expanding markets are quite happy to pay significantly higher wages to snag US-trained pilots.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#27

Post by swatow » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 3:58 AM UTC

cubano wrote: post #23

swatow wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free market economics is often intentionally misunderstood because it doesn't fit into anyone's ideologies. The left ignore the benefits of the free market, and pretend that there is a better system out there. They selfishly expect workers the developing world to respect the "right" of the Western middle class to high wages, as if magically other opportunities that don't involve competing with the Western middle clas…

> The right want people to think that capitalism is magic, because they don't even want redistribution, which mainstream economists believe is something the market cannot do itself, and must be done by the government. The "government" is nothing but a collection of people who have used political acumen, and not technical or business skills, to gain control of a system. They are really no different from the executives…

I think you're wrong about the government. It has many caring and dedicated people, who want to make the nation, and the world, better. And I think most politicians truly believe in what they claim to stand for. So stating what the government should do is productive and important, because ultimately it guides what politicians do.

The ideology I support is free market economics with generous redistribution and government services. This has been put into practice in Australia, NZ, Canada, the UK and Scandinavia. The only serious deviation is in the concessions made to the labour union movement, but these have been lessening with time.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#28

Post by Potando » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 4:00 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #25

Potando wrote: post #12

It's strange how action which has apparently helped to lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty is portrayed as a "scandal". There's clearly a big labor pool willing to work for lower pay than Americans. Give them a chance at a better life! If Californians dislike foreign workers so much, why are they still allowing people from the midwest to work there? Shouldn't they be throttled too to keep wag…

> It's strange how action which has apparently helped to lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty is portrayed as a "scandal". Maybe because it was not intended to "lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty" but to "lower or keep the same american developer wages"? As if those US business owners give a rats arse about getting "poor Indian workers out of poverty". If those guys a…

> Perhaps because of this thing called patriotism, a.k.a. "do not piss where you live"...

Serious question - why patriotism for their country in preference to their state, country, city, continent, or planet? I've heard that Texas people don't like the rest of the USA. Perhaps they'd be more inclined to disallow out of state workers because their patriotism is applied at a different level than other Americans?

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#29

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 4:02 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #25

Potando wrote: post #12

It's strange how action which has apparently helped to lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty is portrayed as a "scandal". There's clearly a big labor pool willing to work for lower pay than Americans. Give them a chance at a better life! If Californians dislike foreign workers so much, why are they still allowing people from the midwest to work there? Shouldn't they be throttled too to keep wag…

> It's strange how action which has apparently helped to lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty is portrayed as a "scandal". Maybe because it was not intended to "lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty" but to "lower or keep the same american developer wages"? As if those US business owners give a rats arse about getting "poor Indian workers out of poverty". If those guys a…

Capitalism is wonderful. A bunch of greedy business owners can act selfishly and thousands of poor Indians are lifted from poverty.

And yes, you are quite correct - once the Indian developers are no longer poor, capitalism will then attempt to lift others out of poverty. In fact, this is already happening - southeast Asia is the new "cheap" place, while India is becoming midrange on quality/cost.

Perhaps because of this thing called patriotism, a.k.a. "do not piss where you live"...

Note that as demonstrated by this thread, democracy will be far less effective at helping poor Indians/others than capitalism. A bunch of self-interested voters who talk about altruism while engaging in protectionism will do less to help the poor than even the worst bodyshop.

Re: New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

#30

Post by cubano » Sun, Mar 01, 2015, 4:06 AM UTC

swatow wrote: post #27

cubano wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The right want people to think that capitalism is magic, because they don't even want redistribution, which mainstream economists believe is something the market cannot do itself, and must be done by the government. The "government" is nothing but a collection of people who have used political acumen, and not technical or business skills, to gain control of a system. They are really no different from the executives…

I think you're wrong about the government. It has many caring and dedicated people, who want to make the nation, and the world, better. And I think most politicians truly believe in what they claim to stand for. So stating what the government should do is productive and important, because ultimately it guides what politicians do. The ideology I support is free market economics with generous redistribution and governm…

> It has many caring and dedicated people, who want to make the nation, and the world, better.

I am 50 yo, and have seen 100's of politicians come and go over my years, and I can count on one hand how many I believe have these values that you mention.

They all certainly try very, very hard to project this fiction, but time and time again, their actions have betrayed them.

My experience, guided by intelligence, tells me that most people who dedicate their lives to politics are megalomaniacs whom are only in it for the power and glory.