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FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote

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Re: FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote

#701
post #529
post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Some debate for sport/fun > In the context of a serious discussion, I believe the term for this is "trolling". That's not always true. Have you never had a sporting debate with a friend who's opinion you knew full well going in? In addition, a common debate preparation tactic for "serious" debates is often to argue from the opponent's side. This forces one to better understand the opposition's stance, better prep…

> Have you never had a sporting debate with a friend who's opinion you knew full well going in? Huh? You mean have I argued with a friend about a belief of theirs I was aware of ahead of time? Yes? If you're asking if I was disagreeing with them just for fun, while pretending to be serious, then no, because I try not to be a jerk to my friends. I'm well aware of debate tactics and devil's advocacy, and for the most p…

> so you'll be better-equipped to take me down.

Seriously guy?

Re: FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote

#702
post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea why this is being downvoted, this is a legitimate comment. If there were ever a point that the emotional argument will try and force others out, this demonstrated it.

You don't think "godonearth, I mean, government" and calling half the population "collectivist", "communist", "fascist", and "brainless" might be a little bit emotional? I downvoted it because it was a content-free screed full of political shibboleths and mantras.

Given two or more sides of an issue, there will be those that use more emotional arguments in their rhetoric, and there will be those that won't care about the pathos side of rhetoric and focus on the logic. According to my experience, a good heuristic to know which side is right is to pick the one that is more grounded on logic and relies less on arguing from pathos.

Unfortunately, this simple heuristics is out of reach for most people.

First, let us establish that because we have a democratic government, this must mean more than half the population wants it to be like this (otherwise this is not a democracy). Therefore more than half the population is composed of people who are collectivists. Collectivists believe that by utilizing a middleman to share costs amongst everyone, they can make the cost of goods and services cheaper. The word "collectivist" is used disdainfully by those who reject the idea that adding a middleman central planner to decide how resources will be allocated in an economy will make goods and services cheaper.

Now we can argue that collectivists cannot grasp the heuristics suggested herein, because they fall time and again to government propaganda, and it can be demonstrated by public polling that most people accept unquestioningly any narrative that the government puts forward about important political and economic events. That is why news anchors are fatherly figures that seek to gain their viewers trust, so that they won't think they need to research by themselves what they are fed by the media, since the tone and emotion set by the anchor give the information an aura of authority.

Because collectivists are so prone to being lied to and manipulated by hyperpathetic rhetoric, I can only see one solution for the individualist: coarsely put, they should all move to a place and establish an individualist colony, and peremptorily reject the influence of collectivists by accusing them of fascism, which is a suitable moniker for a group of people that believe in the authority of a central planner over a region; much like the kings and the pharaos of yore, the collectivists still believe there is a numinous person that is pure and incorruptible that must pull the excalibur of power and peacefully rule over and for us all. This much has never been seen matter-of-factly in objective reality.

I believe if this secession were to happen and enough individualists moved to a separate place and claimed it their own and carried on with their lives for generations, that eventually the average collectivist would realize that prosperity and wealth blossom in a free society at a much more efficient and rapid pace than in the collectivist side.

djur: Is this non-offensive enough for you? It's the same points I made above when I used those words you don't like. I hope from this you will learn that as a critical thinker, you are supposed to see past the shape (the rhetoric, the pathos, the choice of words) of the discourse and examine the arguments being put forward for their validity (not harmony, not beauty, not political correctness). If you can't see the arguments amidst the "bad words", keep trying. You will get it eventually.

Also consider that if you downvote those that use bad words, you probably upvote those that use good words. The media targets people like you that react positively to good words and badly to bad words. They rely on that reaction mechanism to shape your opinion. By reacting emotionally you are publicly proving that you are easily swayed by pathetic rhetoric.

Re: FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote

#703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think at least part of it is because the people on HN enjoy solving problems so much. When there's a post that says "we solved this problem", a lot of people here (me included) think "great, what's the next problem to solve". The focus is on "the next problem to solve" more than the "great", sometimes to the degree that the "great" is completely ignored. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, but it can get…

I think at least part of it is because the people on HN enjoy solving problems so much. Or we're all cynical assholes. Just possibly.

> Or we're all cynical assholes. Just possibly.

Unlikely. HNers are wide-eyed Utopians in the Platonic fashion of believing in virtue through central planning. There is no cynicism here to be found, but in the downvoted comments.

Re: FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote

#704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think at least part of it is because the people on HN enjoy solving problems so much. When there's a post that says "we solved this problem", a lot of people here (me included) think "great, what's the next problem to solve". The focus is on "the next problem to solve" more than the "great", sometimes to the degree that the "great" is completely ignored. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, but it can get…

I think at least part of it is because the people on HN enjoy solving problems so much. Or we're all cynical assholes. Just possibly.

Well, which comment would you upvote?

1) Yay! 2) Here's where they could have done more...

Re: FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote

#705
post #463

Unfortunately the Net Neutrality 'debate' was another lose-lose situation for the United States. What we wanted wasn't for the big telecom duopoly to be forced to either run their business as a tiered service or as a regulated utility. What we wanted was for the US Government to exercise its Anti-Trust capabilities and bust the universally hated Comcast and Time Warner into a bunch of small companies, and set "Goldil…

There are two problems, and the FCC has solved one of them perfectly. Problem 1: ISPs trying to charge to (de)prioritize packets. Problem 2: The two biggest ISPs suck, and should be broken up, and/or it should be mandated that competition is much easier. Would you be happy if they solved problem 2 without solving problem 1? Leave problem 2 for another day, and celebrate that problem 1 has been dealt with.

> Problem 2: The two biggest ISPs suck, and should be broken up, and/or it should be mandated that competition is much easier.

While its not a complete solution, the FCC decision -- on the same day as the open internet vote -- preempting state laws prohibiting municipal broadband efforts (which laws prevent one potential alternative to the incumbent providers) at least addresses Problem 2.

Re: FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote

#706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I think that solving problem 2 is the most important, and problem 1, if it is truly a problem, could be solved by a competitive free market. If it's truly possible for new competitors to enter the market, then if problem 1 really matters, market forces will handle it.

if problem 1 really matters, market forces will handle it. Market forces didn't handle seat belts, air bags, fuel efficiency, racial discrimination, taxation without representation, etc. We cannot rely on the market to solve all problems.

From the original comment: > Problem 1: ISPs trying to charge to (de)prioritize packets. > Problem 2: The two biggest ISPs suck, and should be broken up, and/or it should be mandated that competition is much easier.

My point is that problem 1 is only a "problem" because of problem 2. If it's easy for new competitors to enter the market (which I think addresses the main complaint about charging for traffic), then "problem 1" is not a problem. It may well be the case that you can't solve the competition problem without solving the pay-for-traffic "problem", but the competition problem is the only one that matters on its own.

If Comcast wants to charge Netflix for their traffic, let them go ahead. This country used to have antitrust laws that should be perfectly sufficient to take Comcast to court and break them up if the case can be made that they're doing it to punish competition and promote their own services.

I can see the case that sometimes it makes sense and is fair to charge big users, and that sometimes this behavior can be abused to harm competition. My worry is that Net Neutrality is a sledgehammer we don't really need.

Re: FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote

#707
post #666
post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ISPs trying to charge to (de)prioritize packets I'm still not getting it. Isn't this like saying restaurants are charging to provide more flavorful, healthier food? The cost burden may appear to fall on the suppliers in the ISP case, but they just pass that onto the consumer, just like the price you see next to the menu item. Problem 1 only appears to be a problem because of problem 2. It's a competition issue. Are…

Restaurants can't prioritize white customers over black customers. They can't provide more flavorful, healthier food for white customers only, while giving rotten, old, bad food to black customers while charging the same price. ISP's can however charge a higher price for faster speeds, same as a restaurant can charge a higher price for more flavorful and healthier food. competition solve problems when every actor act…

Your discrimination example is a straw man. Not applicable.

I'm talking about the menu a restaurant puts together based on the deals and choice they get from suppliers. One supplier may undercut the other. The restaurant may sign a long term deal with a supplier that isn't beneficial to the patrons. Competition is a check on that scenario, just as it is with any market where there is at least a handful of non-colluding sellers.

It's not rational to charge suppliers for priority? It's totally rational. They want more of your pipe. Ignoring the popular notions of fairness and "packet equality", why shouldn't they get charged more?

Competes fairly? How about just legally? A rule violation is a rule violation and should be settled in the justice system. The beauty of competition is that companies would rather undercut/offer a superior product over the competitors rather than waste time in court (or jail). You just need several competitors to keep them honest. It's a sufficient quantity of options, not the heavy-hand of the state, that ensures consumers are protected.

If anti-discrimination laws were repealed, do you honestly believe minorities and women would have their dining and golfing options cut by 50%? I bet it wouldn't even be 5%. And I bet white males would have their options cut by the same number. Popular opinion and competition help solve that particular market problem. Law definitely helps, but the assumption that competition only works when "everyone competes fairly with the same moral and ethical values" is flat out false. On the whole, the profit motive is much stronger than any superficial biases. Finding talented workers who share the exact same superficial biases, and not having someone like Jesse Jackson leading picket lines outside your business would both be damn near impossible.

Re: FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote

#708
post #564

Unfortunately the Net Neutrality 'debate' was another lose-lose situation for the United States. What we wanted wasn't for the big telecom duopoly to be forced to either run their business as a tiered service or as a regulated utility. What we wanted was for the US Government to exercise its Anti-Trust capabilities and bust the universally hated Comcast and Time Warner into a bunch of small companies, and set "Goldil…

But breaking up Comcast or TW wouldn't lead to increased competition and more options for consumers. Breaking them up would not change the fact that most people will only have one serious option for wired internet service... it would simply change the name of the one option that a given consumer would have. The reason being that, for a given location, the permission to actually lay down the lines is going to be given…

At the very least, they wouldn't have the overwhelming advantage when negotiating peering terms with content and carrier networks. Eyeball (broadband) networks currently have far too much power, and is the reason why they make huge profits while pretty much every primarily carrier network loses money. The cost of Internet connectivity is dependent on the cost of cable in the ground, and the cost of equipment. For both, carrier networks have to make larger (and thus riskier) capital outlays and pay a premium to operate at a larger scale. Meanwhile, the broadband networks received billions of public funds on the condition they'd ensure access in rural areas and provide a minimum level of service, both of which they haven't done yet kept the money.

Re: FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote

#709
post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is why you would disconnect the Bell on all the "extra" phones. ;)

Fascinating and informative! Thanks! I had no idea it was this bad, as I am from the UK.

It depends on your definition of "bad." The Ma Bell monopoly certainly constrained your ability to even hook your own equipment to their wiring for many years and resulted in an uncompetitive market in terms of pricing. Even intra-state long distance was very expensive by today's standards. (Though some of that was a function of the technology economics as well.) On the other hand, it just worked. US telephone service was extremely reliable.

Re: FCC Passes Strict Net Neutrality Regulations on 3-2 Vote

#710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if problem 1 really matters, market forces will handle it. Market forces didn't handle seat belts, air bags, fuel efficiency, racial discrimination, taxation without representation, etc. We cannot rely on the market to solve all problems.

From the original comment: > Problem 1: ISPs trying to charge to (de)prioritize packets. > Problem 2: The two biggest ISPs suck, and should be broken up, and/or it should be mandated that competition is much easier. My point is that problem 1 is only a "problem" because of problem 2. If it's easy for new competitors to enter the market (which I think addresses the main complaint about charging for traffic), then "pro…

Problem 2 will go away fairly quickly if the two biggest ISP's do not invest in their infrastructure as they will create a situation where it is easy to get leapfrogged by other players. Net neutrality curbs an aspect of piss taking and bad behaviour that is both current and proven and is merely a law to abide by for all players, whereas breaking up independent companies is surely far more of a sledgehammer, and one that should only be used as a last resort if legislation fails.
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