Live data from Hacker News

Why are there so many Engineers among Islamic Radicals? [pdf]

orientemiedo.files.wordpress.com

11–20 of 24 posts

Re: Why are there so many Engineers among Islamic Radicals? [pdf]

#11
That abstract reads strangely to me.

"This article demonstrates that among violent Islamists engineers with a degree, individuals with an engineering education are three to four times more frequent than we would expect given the share of engineers among university students in Islamic countries."

That sounds like they started with a sample of "violent Islamists engineers with a degree" and found lots of people with engineering degrees! I must be misunderstanding this, but I did do an engineering degree rather than "social science".

Re: Why are there so many Engineers among Islamic Radicals? [pdf]

#12
Articles like these are sidetracking the conversation that we should really be talking about. Beliefs have consequences and religious beliefs should be subjected to the same kind of conversational pressures, that we subject all other beliefs to. And this taboo that gives beliefs, in the name of god, a free ride in our discourse has to be lifted.

To attribute this to professions as opposed to what people think, seems to me to completely miss the way people behave in this world.

Re: Why are there so many Engineers among Islamic Radicals? [pdf]

#13
post #11

That abstract reads strangely to me. "This article demonstrates that among violent Islamists engineers with a degree, individuals with an engineering education are three to four times more frequent than we would expect given the share of engineers among university students in Islamic countries." That sounds like they started with a sample of "violent Islamists engineers with a degree" and found lots of people with en…

They are saying:

(violent extremists with engineering degrees) / (violent extremests with degrees) != (university students in engineering in Islamic country) / (university students in Islamic country)

Re: Why are there so many Engineers among Islamic Radicals? [pdf]

#14

My pet theory is that INTJ males are prone to extremism. We see it here with this kind of pie-in-the-sky Libertarianism and other fringe views. Not sure why this is, I imagine having a disconnect from the social and emotional parts of life means that its easier to justify very strict and simplistic philosophies that miss out on many nuances. Often that comes with a mix of OCD and ADHD-like behaviors. When push comes…

>My pet theory is that INTJ males are prone to extremism. We see it here with this kind of pie-in-the-sky Libertarianism and other fringe views.

Well that's insulting. I'm a socialist!

Re: Why are there so many Engineers among Islamic Radicals? [pdf]

#15
Maybe it's because engineers have a mentality of 'teardown' and 'rebuild'. Bankers and corporations infiltrated the US government? Teardown everything. Rebuild. Screw the women and children. Destroy America. We need to start from scratch.

What these people don't realize is you can change from within. We have elected government officials for a reason. Guess what? 85% of congress people are white and male (and many of them old). I'm gonna guess most of the bankers are white and male (and old). You want change? vote some women in. vote some minorities in. They're not part of the boy's network. They will take care of the disadvantaged.

US is the best country for a reason. We have a good system of representatives and freedoms of speech and protest. People on this board seem to love Russia and China. Guess what? Russia is ruled by a dictator, and China is ruled by a group of men. China's gdp per capita is $6000, with endless pollution. In Russia, entrepreneurs get jailed and poisoned and their companies get stolen away. You love those countries so much? go move there.

Re: Why are there so many Engineers among Islamic Radicals? [pdf]

#16
Assuming this is true, it is very bizarre. There is a very large and fundamental difference between fundamentalist Islam groups and pretty much everybody else on the planet. It doesn't even really have to do with the religious beliefs per se. The issue is that portions of Islamic culture did not go through the Enlightenment that produced most of the thinking that undergirds pretty much the whole planet except for a few pockets, with a few primarily Islamic societies prominent among them.

Most of us living in post-Industrialized nations can't even conceive of how a person in a pre-Enlightenment situation would think about the world. For instance, when you drop an object, it falls because of gravity, right? A pre-Enlightenment person would not see it that way. They would see the falling object as primarily an expression of the will of a god. Not a "supernatural" god. "Supernatural" suggests a separation from the natural. That separation comes from the Enlightenment. Without the Enlightenment, it doesn't exist. There is no 'physical world' here and a 'supernatural world' over there. There is only one world. The physical world, in all its operation, is an expression of a very real, very immediately present deity. This is a deity that punishes the wicked with sickness. It's why when it is time to plant crops, you ask the church, not an agriculturalist. It's why eternity is within arms reach. And it's why things like tolerance can not even be considered.

That being said, I wonder if these engineers are perhaps of post-Enlightenment beliefs, but swayed by less ideological factors, dominated by charismatic leaders and the like? I have a real hard time imagining that such pre-Enlightenment thinking can survive very long beyond contact with post-Enlightenment thinking. Then again, I might just be totally wrong on that. Post-enlightenment thinking doesn't promise you grand eternal wars between good and evil that every person is a soldier in with eternal life hanging in the balance.

Re: Why are there so many Engineers among Islamic Radicals? [pdf]

#17

My pet theory is that INTJ males are prone to extremism. We see it here with this kind of pie-in-the-sky Libertarianism and other fringe views. Not sure why this is, I imagine having a disconnect from the social and emotional parts of life means that its easier to justify very strict and simplistic philosophies that miss out on many nuances. Often that comes with a mix of OCD and ADHD-like behaviors. When push comes…

One hypothesis proposed in the article indeed was:

"What exactly about engineers’ mindset or cognitive disposition could make them a good match for this ideological cocktail? We can conjecture that engineering as a degree might be relatively more attractive to individuals seeking cognitive ‘‘closure’’ and clear-cut answers as opposed to more open-ended sciences – a disposition which has been empirically linked to conservative political attitudes (Jost et al. 2003; Amodio et al. 2007). Engineering is a subject in which individuals with a dislike for ambiguity might feel comfortable."

(But mind you, that is not the author's main hypothesis).

Re: Why are there so many Engineers among Islamic Radicals? [pdf]

#18

My pet theory is that INTJ males are prone to extremism. We see it here with this kind of pie-in-the-sky Libertarianism and other fringe views. Not sure why this is, I imagine having a disconnect from the social and emotional parts of life means that its easier to justify very strict and simplistic philosophies that miss out on many nuances. Often that comes with a mix of OCD and ADHD-like behaviors. When push comes…

Holding a classic liberal, or libertarian, philosophy and having strong feelings of empathy and compassion are not mutually exclusive. It is a logical fallacy to assume that because one is opposed to the government doing something that person is against that thing being done at all.

Re: Why are there so many Engineers among Islamic Radicals? [pdf]

#19
My theory:

Engineers tend to be biased towards solutions that are the result of actions they can take.

Political problems are the opposite of engineering, often the best action you can take is an indirect and uncertain persuasion aimed at getting some group to not directly oppose your interests. So, in the face of great injustice, real or perceived; those of a political mindset will try to establish coalitions, those of an engineering mindset will want to do something even if it's ineffective.

Re: Why are there so many Engineers among Islamic Radicals? [pdf]

#20
post #15

Maybe it's because engineers have a mentality of 'teardown' and 'rebuild'. Bankers and corporations infiltrated the US government? Teardown everything. Rebuild. Screw the women and children. Destroy America. We need to start from scratch. What these people don't realize is you can change from within. We have elected government officials for a reason. Guess what? 85% of congress people are white and male (and many of…

Operation Earnest Voice - the post
Post reply on HN