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Stripe: Bitcoin

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Re: Stripe: Bitcoin

#371
post #336
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or as another example I once rented a VPS for a month from Russia. I paid in bitcoins because it was $3 or $4 so I simply didn't care if the VPS provider didn't deliver (submitting a chargeback request for such a low amount is not worth my time) If this is a real use case (and frankly how often do you want to pay for something that you don't care whether you'll actually get?) you can buy a prepaid credit card (over…

> how often do you want to pay for something that you don't care whether you'll actually get? It is not that I don't care, but I estimate the probability the merchant is fraudulent is low enough that I don't feel the need to absolutely have the protection of the chargeback mechanism. I think this is true for the majority of the cases: MOST merchants are honest, MOST disputes can be resolved without chargebacks. > You…

> I had to wait days to receive the new credit card

That may be a problem with the current implementation, but it doesn't have to be. There's no reason your credit card couldn't be e.g. loaded onto your phone, using NFC to talk to a reader, and then it could be updated instantly if need be.

> I had to re-set up all the bills I had set up to be automatically paid with the previous card to now be paid by the new card, etc.

The only reason this isn't a problem for Bitcoin is that you can't set up bill payments in Bitcoin at all.

> Still, some fraud scenarios are completely eliminated with Bitcoin. I pay a fraudulent restaurant with a CC that gets skimmed, I get to deal with the hassles of having to have the card replaced, potentially having my credit score damaged, etc. I pay a fraudulent restaurant with bitcoins, I know the restaurant can do nothing to steal the bitcoins remaining in my wallet.

It works for a restaurant but that's a very special case - you pay after you already know that what you got was right. More often you're buying something where you won't realise if it's broken until you get it home, in which case much more serious fraud is possible with bitcoin than with credit cards. And even the restaurant case is not a compelling advantage for bitcoin - if your credit card gets skimmed the worst case is really not very bad.

> Private keys can be very well protected and almost impossible to steal

Sure. But the kind of person who gets their credit card PIN stolen (which is what we were comparing to) isn't going to have a well-protected private key.

> Every day, millions of Americans use financial instruments that are not FDIC insured

Sure. But almost everyone gets an FDIC-insured account as a backstop before getting any of those other instruments. And it's convenient to have all your accounts in the same currency.

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin

#372
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that even if you're credit card number is stolen, you are not responsible and get a new card. Compare that to the data hacks of bitcoin exchanges...

Bitcoin and bitcoin exchanges are a completely different thing. When my CC data is stolen, criminals everywhere have access to my current personal information, often even address, phone, picture. I cannot possibly undo that damage. Losing a regular payment for me is NOTHING compared to that. Just having Google have all that next to other data mined about me from people using gmail accounts to mail me etc, it's massiv…

How does your picture get stolen along with credit card data? And isn't your phone quasi public information anyway? Nowadays, unless you have a very common name, it's not that hard to find someone's details (picture, phone, ...)

I've had my credit card "scammed" several times and I just fill in a piece of paper and the bank refunds me the money and each time it's cost me exactly zero euros.

I've used Bitcoin a few times and love how it works, but my lack of understanding of the security precautions required to handle hot & cold wallets + the volatility of it makes me just averse to it. I prefer my credit card getting scammed anytime to the uncertainty of what will happen if I convert a large amount of euro to btc.

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin

#373
post #371
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how often do you want to pay for something that you don't care whether you'll actually get? It is not that I don't care, but I estimate the probability the merchant is fraudulent is low enough that I don't feel the need to absolutely have the protection of the chargeback mechanism. I think this is true for the majority of the cases: MOST merchants are honest, MOST disputes can be resolved without chargebacks. > You…

> I had to wait days to receive the new credit card That may be a problem with the current implementation, but it doesn't have to be. There's no reason your credit card couldn't be e.g. loaded onto your phone, using NFC to talk to a reader, and then it could be updated instantly if need be. > I had to re-set up all the bills I had set up to be automatically paid with the previous card to now be paid by the new card,…

Are you not replying to my main point (most merchants are honest therefore chargebacks are rarely needed) because you agree with it?

> That may be a problem with the current implementation, but it doesn't have to be

I agree. But I highlighted this to show you that credit cards have kinks, as currently implemented, yet are reasonably successful/useful. Therefore for the same reason Bitcoin doesn't have to be perfect to be reasonably successful/useful.

> The only reason this isn't a problem for Bitcoin is that you can't set up bill payments in Bitcoin at all.

Yes it is possible. Some hosted wallets let you set up recurring payments. This is awesome because unlike credit cards, you don't have to give the merchant authorization to debit your money, but you give this authorization only to the wallet hoster. This gives the merchant zero chances to screw you up (eg. continuing to debit your card when you want it to stop, or setting up a recurring payment disclosed in the fine print when you think you are authorizing a one-time payment.)

> It works for a restaurant but that's a very special case

This scenario covers literally ALL in-person transactions. Hardly a "very special case".

> But the kind of person who gets their credit card PIN stolen (which is what we were comparing to) isn't going to have a well-protected private key.

No we were comparing typical users. A security conscious credit card user can STILL get his number stolen and money stolen (eg. a merchant gets hacked). Whereas a security conscious Bitcoin user using a hardware wallet is virtually impervious to being attacked (only highly sophisticated hacks like stealing the hardware wallet and decaping the secure chip to steal the private keys without knowing the PIN).

Some users are so bad with security and detecting scams that they will always get their money stolen (regardless if they use credit cards or bitcoins).

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin

#374
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had to wait days to receive the new credit card That may be a problem with the current implementation, but it doesn't have to be. There's no reason your credit card couldn't be e.g. loaded onto your phone, using NFC to talk to a reader, and then it could be updated instantly if need be. > I had to re-set up all the bills I had set up to be automatically paid with the previous card to now be paid by the new card,…

Are you not replying to my main point (most merchants are honest therefore chargebacks are rarely needed) because you agree with it? > That may be a problem with the current implementation, but it doesn't have to be I agree. But I highlighted this to show you that credit cards have kinks, as currently implemented, yet are reasonably successful/useful. Therefore for the same reason Bitcoin doesn't have to be perfect t…

> Are you not replying to my main point (most merchants are honest therefore chargebacks are rarely needed) because you agree with it?

I think there's an at-the-margin effect here. The threat of chargebacks makes actual chargebacks usually unnecessary. Just like having an army can be very valuable even if you only go to war rarely.

> Yes it is possible. Some hosted wallets let you set up recurring payments. This is awesome because unlike credit cards, you don't have to give the merchant authorization to debit your money, but you give this authorization only to the wallet hoster.

With a bank account you can do this as a "standing order". It's safer than most of the bill-payment methods. And surprisingly useless, because most of the time you want to pay a bill that can vary, so you need to give the merchant authorization to tell them how much you need to pay them.

> setting up a recurring payment disclosed in the fine print when you think you are authorizing a one-time payment.

Something you can only stop by making setting up payments less convenient. If bitcoin takes off, it will need a system for seamlessly setting up recurring payments from a website that wants to - and the exact same scams will apply.

> This scenario covers literally ALL in-person transactions. Hardly a "very special case".

No, it only covers cases where you pay after using the thing you bought. If I buy a TV with a credit card, take it home, plug it in and find out it doesn't work, I can if need be make a chargeback; with bitcoin I'm stuffed.

> No we were comparing typical users. A security conscious credit card user can STILL get his number stolen and money stolen (eg. a merchant gets hacked).

If they're security-conscious enough to not get their PIN stolen, then they can't lose any money.

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