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It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

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Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#61

Post by nickysielicki »

I don't understand why society thinks that certain things can be contained, while certain other things cannot be.

The liberals will always be telling you that the drug war is a failure, and that drug users will be able to get their hands on drugs anyway, and we should embrace that fact so we can retain some level of control, and so otherwise innocent people don't have to interact with criminals. But guns on the other hand...

The conservatives will always be telling you that guns can't be controlled-- that criminals will get their hands on guns anyway and will conceal carry all the time, and that we're better off keeping them legal so we can retain some level of control, and so that innocent people don't have to be at a disadvantage to criminals. But drugs on the other hand...

I take this a level further: There's no containing cryptography. The people that are on tor looking at child pornography are protected. The people that are on tor plotting terrorist activities are also protected. The only people not protected are people that don't care or don't know, and they're not the people that are worth spying on in the first place.

The NSA internet data collection is perhaps the most frivolous government program in the history of the United States. We've spent god knows how much money building their Utah data center, and it will be useless as soon as the tech community starts encrypting. [1]

[1]: letsencrypt.org

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#62

Post by josefresco »

axolotl_king wrote: post #11

It's easy to casually propose such things, on a blog, while lobbing the same tired criticisms about over-zealous intelligence gathering programs. But to actually implement such grand, sweeping measures would require resources that don't justify the benefits. Just scale back and increase oversight on troubling programs, and otherwise let the NSA do its critical job as an intelligence gathering agency.

Finally, a pragmatic voice amongst those calling for an anarchist solution. I will add my vote to those calling for increased oversight, and regulation over the all out "scrapping" of these programs.

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#63

Post by [deleted] »

belorn wrote: post #39

"Actively attacking enemy networks is an offensive military operation, and should be part of an offensive military unit." Key word here is offensive military unit , like a bomber squad or tank devision. You should not send out this kind of units to allies, neutral states or neighbors, not matter how "valuable" it would be in trade negotiations. Its to the benefit of all that on-line communication is restored to peace…

[deleted]

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#64

Post by tessierashpool »

the NSA's surveillance is an unprecedented power grab. add Moore's Law to the mix, let that policy sit for 20 years, and what kind of power do they have? they can predict everything, they can track everything, they have no oversight - what they're doing is setting themselves up to completely replace the government in 2035.

hopefully, that's not deliberate. hopefully, they're just that naively convinced of their own goodness. but that's what they're doing.

the NSA's unconstitutional surveillance is a total disgrace, a national shame, a total failure to uphold the Constitution. that's the GOOD news. that's what it is today. add Moore's Law and 20 years, it's going to be something much worse.

(shoutout to everyone who was on Hacker News back when mentioning how Moore's Law ties into this would be worth an upvote.)

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#65

Post by RankingMember »

nickysielicki wrote: post #61

I don't understand why society thinks that certain things can be contained, while certain other things cannot be. The liberals will always be telling you that the drug war is a failure, and that drug users will be able to get their hands on drugs anyway, and we should embrace that fact so we can retain some level of control, and so otherwise innocent people don't have to interact with criminals. But guns on the other…

As long as there's a chance that the NSA could be able to break strong encryption and thus gain a huge leg up on other nations/potential lawbreakers, the governmental sentiment will remain in favor of retaining the NSA in the face of whatever pie-in-the-face leaks come out. Last I heard, they're working on a quantum computer to do exactly that.

http://www.cnet.com/news/nsa-working-on-quantum-computer-to-...

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#66

Post by rhino369 »

amirmc wrote: post #59
rhino369 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this sort of spying clearly isn't like ordering a bombing run on Berlin or sending a tank division to capture Athens. Spying isn't even a military operation, it is mostly diplomatic. Spying has always been common even amongst allies. It is a form of hacked transparency. Countries hide as much as they can.

There's a distinction to be drawn between James Bond-style spying ("Humint" - which is the kind you're actually referring to) and the large-scale, indiscriminate, archived, mass-surveillence of otherwise ordinary people ("Sigint" - which is what we've learned about over the last couple of years).

Sigint has been around signals signals were around.

The only reason I see a reason to distinguish is what the info collected is being used to so America can blackmail German citizens, that is shitty. But if we are just trying to collect information about Germany or people who just happen to be in German who are people of interest? That is the NSA mission.

The real issue is the potential for abuse. But the US government has plenty of stuff it could really abuse.

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#67

Post by CamperBob2 »

[deleted] wrote: post #63
belorn wrote: post #39

"Actively attacking enemy networks is an offensive military operation, and should be part of an offensive military unit." Key word here is offensive military unit , like a bomber squad or tank devision. You should not send out this kind of units to allies, neutral states or neighbors, not matter how "valuable" it would be in trade negotiations. Its to the benefit of all that on-line communication is restored to peace…

[deleted]

honestly, would you rather be at war or be secretly spied on? No contest!!

You need to reject this as a false choice.

Unsolicited movie recommendation for you: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#68

Post by azernik »

mbauman wrote: post #3

I think an even better argument for breaking up the NSA is that there's a fourth category of work they (should) do that's totally unrelated to surveillance and that I'd classify as "very good:" actively working to secure the communications of US government and companies against the NSA-equivalents of other nation-states and rogue actors. Having this is on the same list as encryption sabotage is a recipe for mismanage…

From The Article:

"And third, the remainder of the NSA needs to be rebalanced so COMSEC (communications security) has priority over SIGINT (signals intelligence). Instead of working to deliberately weaken security for everyone, the NSA should work to improve security for everyone.

Computer and network security is hard, and we need the NSA's expertise to secure our social networks, business systems, computers, phones and critical infrastructure. Just recall the recent incidents of hacked accounts—from Target to Kickstarter. What once seemed occasional now seems routine. Any NSA work to secure our networks and infrastructure can be done openly—no secrecy required."

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#69

Post by lkbm »

nickysielicki wrote: post #61

I don't understand why society thinks that certain things can be contained, while certain other things cannot be. The liberals will always be telling you that the drug war is a failure, and that drug users will be able to get their hands on drugs anyway, and we should embrace that fact so we can retain some level of control, and so otherwise innocent people don't have to interact with criminals. But guns on the other…

People being inconvenient in pushing for social change are insufficiently protected. The CIA spied on MLK Jr., discovered he was having affairs, and used that to try to blackmail him into committing suicide. If he had, that would have been a major loss to society.

And now we have reports of the NSA developing dossiers of minor crimes and non-crimes of inconvenient people's behaviors for future use in discrediting them.

Is your suggestion that anyone who is (or may in the future) choose to be politically inconvenient should use strong encryption for everything even slightly unpopular they may do?

We can't contain cryptography, but neither can we depend on it being universally and effectively applied.

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#70

Post by RankingMember »

itg wrote: post #38
logn wrote: post #29

Regarding NSA and CIA, what do they have to do to get shut down completely? Do we wait until genocide? It doesn't seem like a re-org is the proper response to institutionalized torture, semi-automated assassination campaigns, and creation of a panopticon.

So we should be left in the dark? I would not want the NSA/CIA shutdown unless the same is done with Russia's FSB or Pakistan's ISI.

Therein lies the rub.

There is a middle ground here, but people are (rightfully) foaming at the mouth with anti-NSA rage. In my eyes, this whole situation (NSA going off the map and doing whatever they want) stems from giving them free range with little to no oversight. They simply need better oversight and real consequences for leadership who don't act in the public interest (as determined by a neutral party, albeit a neutral party with top secret clearances).

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