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It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

schneier.com

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Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#31

Post by strictnein »

mason240 wrote: post #24
strictnein wrote: post #9

Read "The Puzzle Palace" and find out why the NSA is structured like it is. The US gov has been re-orging the NSA and factions inside the gov have been fighting over its control since its inception. To use an annoyingly beat to death phrase: we haven't seen its final form yet. Actually a pretty good article overall, but these two lines bother me greatly: > "What was supposed to be a single agency with a dual mission—…

Security is their objective; using all encompassing communication spying is their strategy for accomplishing that objective. This comment is not an endorsement of any NSA policies.

Security, in terms of the NSA, refers to their COMSEC work.

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#32

Post by spacehome »

walod wrote: post #25

What about the problem of distinguishing domestic vs foreign communications? NSA already minimizes American information, plus FBI doesn't have authority to track who called to or from the US to a foreign nation like Pakistan from what I understand, so no phone meta data. The NSA may be too big but I haven't seen anyone bring an actual technical solution for setting the boundaries and so forth.

> NSA already minimizes American information

While this is the PR, in practice it's categorically untrue.

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#33

Post by rikacomet »

Zigurd wrote: post #12

Imagine if the Centers for Disease Control, instead of researching cures for diseases, had a budget in the billions for buying weaponized viruses and bacteria, and was subverting disease prevention. Nobody would stand for that. It would be poisoning health care worldwide. As another commenter pointed out here: "Can we just flip their budget over to making sure US companies are secure?" That is, of course, what should…

I think that is a excellent example of how information might get abused.

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#34

Post by beambot »

derefr wrote: post #14
mbauman wrote: post #3

I think an even better argument for breaking up the NSA is that there's a fourth category of work they (should) do that's totally unrelated to surveillance and that I'd classify as "very good:" actively working to secure the communications of US government and companies against the NSA-equivalents of other nation-states and rogue actors. Having this is on the same list as encryption sabotage is a recipe for mismanage…

Yes. Imagine if the NSA were tasked with being a gatekeeper for data privacy and integrity that large companies like Facebook had to work with any time they pushed an update that sent data somewhere new, in the same way that the FDA verifies safety and efficacy of pharmaceuticals when they're applied to a new problem-domain. (I know that sounds almost satirically over-the-top, but it could work—if it were limited to…

> ...any time they pushed an update that sent data somewhere new...

So you think making the NSA (or any govt agency) the gatekeeper for all data, public and private, would be a good idea? As if there's no way that could be abused? No thanks.

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#35

Post by bediger4000 »

Balgair wrote: post #21
jasonzemos wrote: post #8

Is it possible to hold the position that the NSA should be conducting signals intelligence, data collection, and code-breaking (and yes, email snooping) -- yet at the same time hold the position that the blatantly malicious activities: 0day exploits, software and hardware backdooring, etc should not be allowed? Why commit ourselves to a massive overhaul of the entire NSA when we can address the actual problem here wi…

True, I think the Snowden events have uncovered the unfortunate reality that there is a gigantic hole in the boat. In the end, the only way we get out of this is to redesign the system, from hardware on up, to be secure. The NSA, as per their mandate from Congress as an expression of the will of the people of the USA, is using the holes in the boat to advance the security of the nation. It is literally their job to d…

The NSA does not have a mandate from Congress: it was created by an executive order of President Truman in 1952 (https://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/truman/truman_memo.pd...). That order was classified for a very long time.

That's to say that you're starting from false premises. It is not the NSA's job to advance the security of the nation at all. Hence the need to split it up now. It's time to move the legal basis from executive order to something else, that something else publicly debated and mandated by the people.

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#37

Post by angersock »

randcraw wrote: post #28
edison_carter wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But.. what about parallel construction? We know that the NSA is feeding tips to, among others, the DEA and ATFE -- they're just pretending to find out about criminal activity in other-than-blanket-surveilance ways. The practice is so commonplace that the NSA has a special division for seeding the evidence to other agencies, and there are indications that even state and local law enforcement agencies are in on the fun…

Exactly. Right now the NSA can escape all legal oversight because it has historically operated physically outside the US and under military governance. Since 9-11 and the Patriot Acts, BSA operations have moved inside the US. And in concert with the sharing of intel across military and civilian, the NSA now operates freely across all spaces. This was never intended by statute, and virtually no oversight is in place t…

Here's your oversight:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover

Giving NSA powers (or archives) to the NSA is a really, really, really bad idea.

The court system and legal system in the US these days is a joke and a farce--just look at the number of cases that make it to trial. We can't afford to give this sort of power over to any law enforcement agency.

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#38

Post by itg »

logn wrote: post #29

Regarding NSA and CIA, what do they have to do to get shut down completely? Do we wait until genocide? It doesn't seem like a re-org is the proper response to institutionalized torture, semi-automated assassination campaigns, and creation of a panopticon.

So we should be left in the dark? I would not want the NSA/CIA shutdown unless the same is done with Russia's FSB or Pakistan's ISI.

Re: It's Time to Break Up the NSA (2014)

#39

Post by belorn »

"Actively attacking enemy networks is an offensive military operation, and should be part of an offensive military unit."

Key word here is offensive military unit, like a bomber squad or tank devision. You should not send out this kind of units to allies, neutral states or neighbors, not matter how "valuable" it would be in trade negotiations. Its to the benefit of all that on-line communication is restored to peace, rather than a free-for-all combat zone.

Of the 3 changes suggested by Schneier, this I feel is the most important change that internationally need to happen. Since NSA is the biggest offender here, fixing that actor would encourage other nations to do the same.

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