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EFF Outlines Plan to Fix the Broken Patent System

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21–30 of 59 posts

Re: EFF Outlines Plan to Fix the Broken Patent System

#21

This might be naive on my part but it seems like we could help the situation quite a bit, at least for software patents, by just reducing the amount of time for which new software patents are valid. It's simple, easy to understand and implement, more consistent with the speed at which the software market evolves, would reduce the perceived value of bogus patents making trolling less likely, free up technology sooner…

It's not a good idea. Ideally rights should be for as long as the life of the inventor. Instead of a cut-off time, I've heard people espouse a system of valuation and, in some cases, taxation, so that over time a patent becomes increasingly affordable for others to buy out and put into the public domain.

Ideally from the perspective of the inventor :)

But that's an interesting idea. In that system how is the valuation of an innovation determined?

Re: EFF Outlines Plan to Fix the Broken Patent System

#22
post #2

The solution to the patent system is to abolish it. The whole thing. Seek compensation for the act of coming up with innovative ideas instead of trying to apply artificial state granted monopolies to them after the fact. It would be so much healthier to have money pumped into the R&D of common utility goods for the sake of the innovation than to continue to perpetuate patent warfare while trying to attach a flawed pr…

The usual retort to that is "so you don't want to cure cancer then". The pharmaceutical industry very strongly depends on patents, and would easily be able to convince government through money and "cancer" not to abolish it. The practical thing then is to come up with a solution for pharma, and then abolish the patent system.

Pharma is just the best example. But any industry that involves R&D would be heavily affected.

Why would Qualcomm bother making new designs if some other company will just rip off their design.

All it would do is further weaken the engineers role in society and favor the banker. Without IP, the only thing that matters is capital to build production facilities.

Re: EFF Outlines Plan to Fix the Broken Patent System

#23
Most of these are really excellent, such as the suggestion to require example code for claims implemented in software, to allow the regional courts of appeal to decide patent cases, and to defer most discovery until after claim construction.

On the other hand, some of the suggestions simply beg the question. What is a "software patent" or a "patent troll?" Software is eating the world--mechanisms that would have in the 1990s been implemented in ASICs are implemented in microcontrollers. What people think of "software" they think of typical application code that mostly moves bits from point A to point B or react to user input. Software where each individual line of code is straightforward and requires little thought. An R&D project might spend millions of dollars to write a bunch of code that will be thrown away--and can still be considered successful if it yields useful algorithms. These are qualitatively different kinds of software, but it's devilishly difficult to draw the line.

Of course the easy solution is to eliminate software patents. I'm not convinced that's a good thing long-term. I look at the tech industry, and see one where product companies rather than hard R&D companies make all the money. The folks at SRI who invented Siri get a small license fee, while Apple makes billions by wrapping it with a candy shell. It's an industry where there is tremendous pressure to vertically integrate, because you can only justify R&D on basic technologies if you also control the product that gets sold to end-users.

Re: EFF Outlines Plan to Fix the Broken Patent System

#24
post #10

Man - this guy might have the best title I've seen in a while: Daniel Nazer Staff Attorney and the Mark Cuban Chair to Eliminate Stupid Patents Electronic Frontier Foundation daniel@eff.org

Is that usage correct? Shouldn't he be described as the holder of the Mark Cuban Chair to Eliminate Stupid Patents, rather than being described as the Mark Cuban Chair to Eliminate Stupid Patents? Also, every time I read about the Mark Cuban Chair to Eliminate Stupid Patents I have a mysterious urge to watch "Zoolander".

I too thought that the 'Mark Cuban Chair to Eliminate Stupid Patents' sounded like it was situated in the 'Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good.' I had to skip the rest of the press release and go straight to the White Paper.

Re: EFF Outlines Plan to Fix the Broken Patent System

#25

This might be naive on my part but it seems like we could help the situation quite a bit, at least for software patents, by just reducing the amount of time for which new software patents are valid. It's simple, easy to understand and implement, more consistent with the speed at which the software market evolves, would reduce the perceived value of bogus patents making trolling less likely, free up technology sooner…

It's not a good idea. Ideally rights should be for as long as the life of the inventor. Instead of a cut-off time, I've heard people espouse a system of valuation and, in some cases, taxation, so that over time a patent becomes increasingly affordable for others to buy out and put into the public domain.

I would think 7-10 year as a MAX to ensure that they could profit.

Re: EFF Outlines Plan to Fix the Broken Patent System

#26
post #23

Most of these are really excellent, such as the suggestion to require example code for claims implemented in software, to allow the regional courts of appeal to decide patent cases, and to defer most discovery until after claim construction. On the other hand, some of the suggestions simply beg the question. What is a "software patent" or a "patent troll?" Software is eating the world--mechanisms that would have in t…

In my opinion, software elements in a claim should be treated as means-plus-function claims.

I'm not sold on ending the Federal Circuit. It would just lead to forum shopping and arbitraging circuit splits. That would only increase litigation due to uncertainty.

I'll have to read the EFFs white paper to see why they feel this way. But IMO the Fed circuit + SCOTUS keeping them honest really works.

Re: EFF Outlines Plan to Fix the Broken Patent System

#27
I'm disappointed by the EFF's stance here: it simply isn't strong enough.

I'm in the camp that believes there shouldn't be software patents period. Simple as that.

As for ending the exclusive jurisdiction of the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals on patent case appeals, I assume this is because that court has frequently been overly friendly to patent plaintiff claims. Some might argue it's gone so far as regulatory capture. What's more, the court has repeatedly been overturned by the SCOTUS.

That's a fair argument but what they're forgetting was that the USCoAftFC was introduced to solve a problem. We have the problem now that there is inconsistent treatment of patent cases in Federal district courts, leading plaintiffs to file cases in "friendly" jurisdictions, most notably East Texas.

Prior to 1982, you had the same problem at the appeals level and you had a rush to file appeals in friendly jurisdictions. This court was certainly intended to provide consistent treatment of patent cases and--ideally--allow for experts in patent law to handle such cases.

But the fact that this court has really had trouble finding a patent they didn't like is a sideshow: the real problem here is software patents.

You can't patent a mathematical formula and as anyone with any kind of Computer Science education could tell you, an algorithm is essentially indistinguishable from a mathematical function. The fact that the US courts have ignored this or simply been unable to comprehend it is at the root of the problem.

Re: EFF Outlines Plan to Fix the Broken Patent System

#28
post #23

Most of these are really excellent, such as the suggestion to require example code for claims implemented in software, to allow the regional courts of appeal to decide patent cases, and to defer most discovery until after claim construction. On the other hand, some of the suggestions simply beg the question. What is a "software patent" or a "patent troll?" Software is eating the world--mechanisms that would have in t…

In my opinion, software elements in a claim should be treated as means-plus-function claims. I'm not sold on ending the Federal Circuit. It would just lead to forum shopping and arbitraging circuit splits. That would only increase litigation due to uncertainty. I'll have to read the EFFs white paper to see why they feel this way. But IMO the Fed circuit + SCOTUS keeping them honest really works.

Define "really works".

I also question how much the SCOTUS keeps them honest when they blatently ignore SCOTUS decisions, and SCOTUS does not have the bandwidth to continuously overturn them.

Re: EFF Outlines Plan to Fix the Broken Patent System

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a good idea. Ideally rights should be for as long as the life of the inventor. Instead of a cut-off time, I've heard people espouse a system of valuation and, in some cases, taxation, so that over time a patent becomes increasingly affordable for others to buy out and put into the public domain.

i have to disagree to your statement, which misses foundation. First copyright is always a life long idea, but the focus of patents have always been to incentivice long term research efforts that have budget constraint by having a mid-term monopoly problem today: a lot of trivial design-patents and even patents that are used in the wars between big corps. as one of my advisor board state - screw that patent, we canno…

First copyright is always a life long idea...

Not true in the USA until Disney started twisting the law. This idea has a longer history in Europe.

See http://www.arl.org/focus-areas/copyright-ip/2486-copyright-t... for a more detailed history.

Re: EFF Outlines Plan to Fix the Broken Patent System

#30
post #23

Most of these are really excellent, such as the suggestion to require example code for claims implemented in software, to allow the regional courts of appeal to decide patent cases, and to defer most discovery until after claim construction. On the other hand, some of the suggestions simply beg the question. What is a "software patent" or a "patent troll?" Software is eating the world--mechanisms that would have in t…

> What is a "software patent" or a "patent troll?"

Defining a software patent is not hard. A patent is a software patent if you can infringe it entirely with software. Software can't infringe a patent for a cholesterol drug or a light bulb, so those aren't software patents.

> I look at the tech industry, and see one where product companies rather than hard R&D companies make all the money. The folks at SRI who invented Siri get a small license fee, while Apple makes billions by wrapping it with a candy shell.

There is so much more to a modern smartphone than just Siri that the idea that SRI should be getting any significant fraction of the revenue is a little disingenuous. The "problem" with software is that you can have ten thousand discrete inventions that each individually would have been a revolution in 1995 but the market still expects you to package them all together and sell the device for around $600, and then sell a device with all the same software but less powerful hardware for $150. After the costs of hardware design, manufacturing, marketing, distribution, administration, etc., plus the cost of writing the software to actually implement tens of thousands of "inventions", you would be lucky to give each inventor a penny per device.

But the real problem is you can't accurately price the contribution each inventor makes. There are too many of them that are each worth such a small percentage of the total that spending any kind of significant resources to evaluate their individual value isn't cost effective. But if you can't price patents accurately then you don't have a functioning market, which is fundamentally why we end up with such poor quality patents in software -- if the bad ones go on the pile with the good ones and they all get a similar payout then it's a lot easier to collect rent by filing low quality patents than actually spending money on useful R&D.

> It's an industry where there is tremendous pressure to vertically integrate, because you can only justify R&D on basic technologies if you also control the product that gets sold to end-users.

I don't see what vertical integration has to do with it. Microsoft circa 2002 had every incentive to invest in operating systems R&D, and they did, but they didn't need to sell the hardware or control the market for third party applications to do it.

If you're actually selling software to users you're competing against the previous version of your own software as much as you are against competitors anyway. And the patent can't convince users to upgrade once they already have a version that implements it. If anything software patents are contributing to the vertical integration because a vendor that can establish a monopoly or otherwise strong market position using patents (and any combination of other tactics) can use it to leverage that market position into control of vertical markets.

If you want less vertical integration then what you want is more modular systems, open standards and free software. Which is the opposite of what software patents do.

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