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Government-Linked Certificate Authorities in OS X

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Re: Government-Linked Certificate Authorities in OS X

#41
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be interested to know why if you have the time.

The classic manual method of cert pinning is not feasible for more than a handful of large sites, because each browser that supports it has to update its own pin list. Google adds a whitelist of public keys to Chrome upon request, only for high impact sites. Firefox does the same, with a different list. Safari doesn't support it at all. IE supports it in a useless fashion. This is totally unworkable in the long term.…

Thanks.

Re: Government-Linked Certificate Authorities in OS X

#42
post #38

We should come up with a scheme where certificates are signed by multiple CAs (or you have several cross-linked certificates). If one signature changes but not the others, you know something is wrong [1]. It would be beneficial to use CAs from different political blocks, like one from the US, one from China, and one from the EU, to reduce the risk of collaboration. Of course, a MITM attacker would just strip all cert…

We should come up with a certificate authority that's distributed and based on real trust ... but who do you trust?

Not exactly distributed, but it is based on a somewhat different trust model than conventional CAs: https://letsencrypt.org/

It remains to be seen if it actually makes an impact upon launch. It certainly can't replace all the types of certs in use today.

Re: Government-Linked Certificate Authorities in OS X

#43
post #37

It's technically illegal for the NSA to intercept the Internet traffic of American citizens, but that doesn't mean the US Government can't supply certificates to GCHQ and company.

If American values are so great, why do they stop at American borders?

Ok, I know why. But it's infuriating to watch the U.S Government throw it's weight around in other countries under the guise of spreading democracy or "cooperation", but then operating like a totalitarian police state anywhere it sees fit.

It's not O.K. that Americans get a better deal than everyone else when it comes to privacy and security. Especially not when the U.S government acts like the World Government in real terms.

I really don't have a problem with the U.S running things. I have a problem with the U.S. running things for the the exclusive benefit of America... whatever America is these days. It's certainly not the American people anymore.

EDIT to add, I'm not attacking your comment by the way. I'm jumping on the "illegal to spy on American citizens" bit, which we also know is untrue in real life.

Re: Government-Linked Certificate Authorities in OS X

#44
"You think your HTTPS connection is securely encrypted, but wait, couldn’t the U.S. government generate a brand new fake certificate, give it to the NSA, and then serve that to you? Your web browser won’t raise any alarm bells. The SSL certificate is valid, and it is signed by a Certificate Authority that is trusted by your computer."

I think it's highly unlikely that they'd do that, as there's a chance that the fake certificate could be used as evidence against them later. A valid certificate for google.com signed by the US Govt CA would raise a few eyebrows.

If the NSA really wants to MitM you, it wouldn't surprise me if they had backdoor access to the real GeoTrust Global CA, either by bribery, National Security Letter or even "dark arts" that the real GeoTrust knows nothing about.

Re: Government-Linked Certificate Authorities in OS X

#45
I'm not sure that this is particularly interesting news. For starters, when "the government" wants to spy on you, they generally want to do so in such a way as to not reveal that they are doing so - using their own CA is a big tell that something fishy is going on (yes, only if you have the know-how and inclination to do so, but I'm thinking that this is probably the case for most people trying to keep secrets from the government).

No, if they want to hack your SSL comms, they aren't going to do it by using a MITM attack backed by a government-issued root CA, they are going to do it by gaining access to a "neutral" CA (such as Verisign), and obtaining the root certificate's private key. Now you would have a much harder time of figuring out that something has gone wrong, but then, if you're paranoid of the government spying on you, and you are using a CA other than one you own yourself, you've already lost the battle.

Trust is a Hard Problem(tm) to solve. Without using Certificate Authorities that you don't personally know, it is difficult to create a sufficiently trusted network. I think the best attempt at a description of such a system that I have seen is in Cory Doctorow's "Little Brother" (http://craphound.com/littlebrother/download/), but even there it seems to me that there were numerous problems for scaling, or even just avoiding invaders.

All of which is to say that certificate-based technology couple with CAs that you don't control is not a solution against state-level adversaries. Which in turn makes this entire article fear-mongering rather than a real discovery of a potential threat. In a more cynical mood, I might wonder about the author's motives, was this an attempt to distract away from the fact that the main CAs are not secure against state actors?

Re: Government-Linked Certificate Authorities in OS X

#46
I don't know why people trust companies more than governments. Both can be large and powerful.

Also I find it highly unlikely that these certificates get abused:

- Those certificates are from other branches of the government. They won't like the NSA abusing their certificates.

- When abuse of these signatures gets detected it would be a big scandal. It's way more easy and stealthier to steal the keys of a intermediate CA.

Re: Government-Linked Certificate Authorities in OS X

#47

I don't know why people trust companies more than governments. Both can be large and powerful. Also I find it highly unlikely that these certificates get abused: - Those certificates are from other branches of the government. They won't like the NSA abusing their certificates. - When abuse of these signatures gets detected it would be a big scandal. It's way more easy and stealthier to steal the keys of a intermediat…

We should be moving to systems that cannot be abused instead of systems that "we won't like it" when they get abused. PKI is broken.

Re: Government-Linked Certificate Authorities in OS X

#48

None of them appear in my Windows PC (Windows 7)…A Windows 7 PC has 38 Certificate Authority certificates installed. My Mac OS X Yosemite has 217 Certificate Authority certificates installed. This is a poorly-reseasrched comparison, because Windows downloads root certificates when they are first encountered (see http://support.microsoft.com/kb/931125 ). "When a user goes to a secure website (by using HTTPS SSL), read…

Apple can also push new certs through system updates.
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