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Women are leaving the tech industry in droves

latimes.com

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Re: Women are leaving the tech industry in droves

#31

Post by reitanqild »

DiversityWorks wrote: post #22
broodbucket wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty much the worst possible way to respond to an opinion you seemingly disagree with. Where is the misogyny you see? I, like many others, see where we work as equal opportunity environments and note that the same opinion is shared by those considered minorities. If you've been exposed to something different, that's fine and can be a relevant addition to a discussion that you're flat out refusing to have be…

It was offensive and dismissive, so I responded in kind. Anyone who is so ignorant as to deny the rampant misogyny in tech -- in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary -- is not someone who is going to be swayed by any appeal to reason and so I'm not going to waste my time in vain.

Feel free to explain how it was offensive.

Re: Women are leaving the tech industry in droves

#33

Post by kaitai »

broodbucket wrote: post #20
DiversityWorks wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go away

This is pretty much the worst possible way to respond to an opinion you seemingly disagree with. Where is the misogyny you see? I, like many others, see where we work as equal opportunity environments and note that the same opinion is shared by those considered minorities. If you've been exposed to something different, that's fine and can be a relevant addition to a discussion that you're flat out refusing to have be…

I can't argue that the post your are responding to is terribly substantive, but at the same time, guys who tell me, "No one looks at my chest at conferences!" just don't... inspire a lot of confidence in me.

Perhaps you're saying that you are working to make your workplace an equal opportunity environment, in which case I congratulate you. Perhaps like my workplace, though, there are plenty of inequities, which I simply don't mention too often because I have work to do and I don't want to be seen as the troublemaker. Most of my male colleagues would testify that our workplace is an equal opportunity environment. This is easily demonstrably false if you line up salaries, office space, and academic credentials & publications (I'm at a university so it's relevant). I am indeed grateful to the (male) colleagues who look out for me and try to help me out. At the same time, they are often clueless and have no idea what my interactions with funders and administrators are really like. But complainers and depressing people are just less fun to hang out with, so I don't want to be one of them! Stay positive!

Re: Women are leaving the tech industry in droves

#34

Post by toolz »

wh-uws wrote: post #18
toolz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is arguing there isn't misogyny in tech. There is misogyny almost everywhere. It's been a part of our culture for a very long time and it will take time and continued efforts to solve the problem, but trying to determine which problems are the most obvious is part of the solution and does nothing to undermine the fact that there is a problem. This doesn't appear to highlight the problem. I'm open…

I am. I am explicitly arguing that not only that there is little to no misogyny it tech but even further, that the tech industry goes above and beyond to no be any of your favorite "- ists"

Fair enough, I apologize for speaking for everyone.

Have you never heard a sexist joke at work? That's misogyny in the tech industry. I'm not suggesting it's endemic to tech. I'm merely recognizing that we're not that far removed from a time where women couldn't vote and we still have laws on books that allow men to beat women as punishment in first world countries.

Tech has nothing to do with the disease. We're merely a more observant industry, so we tend to notice things like this before other industries and thus it somehow becomes a problem vs industry instead of just recognizing it as a problem. Tech isn't the only industry that is male dominated and I certainly wouldn't say that being male dominated necessitates sexism.

Re: Women are leaving the tech industry in droves

#35

Post by sliverstorm »

codeddesign wrote: post #27

I'm sorry, but I don't see the issue. I continue to see article after article about women not being in the tech space, but being in corp. tech for over 10 years - outside of larger conservative tech companies such as IBM, the issue isn't that women cannot obtain advancement but more so of the ratio of woman/men in the tech sector. Should I be upset that when I go for my checkup, that I see primarily Asian doctors? Ar…

the issue isn't that women cannot obtain advancement but more so of the ratio of woman/men in the tech sector.

I definitely feel this way when I contemplate the possibility of a glass ceiling at my office. There are no high level female execs. But on the other hand, there is only one recent female new hire (contrasted to 10-20 recent male new hires)

Considering the natural funnel to upper management, it seems abundantly clear the lack-of-female-execs problem, wherever it may be, is not in our promotion system. Maybe it's in hiring. Maybe it's in school. But it doesn't seem to be in promotion.

Re: Women are leaving the tech industry in droves

#36

Post by curun1r »

DiversityWorks wrote: post #22
broodbucket wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty much the worst possible way to respond to an opinion you seemingly disagree with. Where is the misogyny you see? I, like many others, see where we work as equal opportunity environments and note that the same opinion is shared by those considered minorities. If you've been exposed to something different, that's fine and can be a relevant addition to a discussion that you're flat out refusing to have be…

It was offensive and dismissive, so I responded in kind. Anyone who is so ignorant as to deny the rampant misogyny in tech -- in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary -- is not someone who is going to be swayed by any appeal to reason and so I'm not going to waste my time in vain.

And your simplistic, black and white, view of women's situation in the tech world is naive and lacks the nuance necessary to achieve any positive change. The comment you so rudely dismissed made an excellent point. Misogyny is a deep-rooted problem in our society, not just the tech world, and has been for quite some time. This is evidenced by the fact that some of the worst discrimination against women comes from other women. Dismissive name calling will only lead to complaining. Only through understanding will we achieve progress.

We need to examine why we're creating work environments that benefit aggressive personalities. In my job as an engineering manager, I've had to coach two male engineers to be more influential across the organization. This journey has been hard for them since they're the quintessential type-B personalities that are most happy simply getting their work done. But it's been made abundantly clear to me that they cannot advance beyond the Staff level without becoming more vocal leaders. I know this journey well since I've had to force myself into the same unnatural tendencies.

It frustrates me to hear stories like the one we're responding to. Women complaining about being shut out of discussions? I had the same thing happen and for quite some time and I had to constantly ask my manager why I wasn't included in certain meetings. Over time, I started getting invited to more. I've realized that getting my due promotions has required me to be somewhat of an asshole. I don't think my workplace, a large enterprise software company, is uncommon and that's a huge problem. Women complaining about being paid less for the same work? I've witnessed about 100 salary negotiations in my time as a manager and every female prospect has either undervalued herself or caved much too easily whereas most male prospects know their value and fight for it.

I think we can all agree that the outcomes, when women are underpaid, overlooked and made to feel unwelcome, need to change. But the processes that lead to those outcomes are incredibly complex and oversimplifying them does an incredible disservice. These issues are incredibly nuanced and when people like you deny that, you prevent the discussions that might lead to the understanding that is our only hope of remedying the situation.

Re: Women are leaving the tech industry in droves

#37

Post by sliverstorm »

toolz wrote: post #34
wh-uws wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am. I am explicitly arguing that not only that there is little to no misogyny it tech but even further, that the tech industry goes above and beyond to no be any of your favorite "- ists"

Fair enough, I apologize for speaking for everyone. Have you never heard a sexist joke at work? That's misogyny in the tech industry. I'm not suggesting it's endemic to tech. I'm merely recognizing that we're not that far removed from a time where women couldn't vote and we still have laws on books that allow men to beat women as punishment in first world countries. Tech has nothing to do with the disease. We're mere…

Have you never heard a sexist joke at work? That's misogyny in the tech industry.

Hold on.

When my female friends make funny sexist jokes, is that misandry?

Sexist jokes are sexist, but I don't think sexist == misoginist/misandrist.

EDIT: To be clear, I mean when those women make sexist jokes about men. As in, sexism about/directed at men.

Re: Women are leaving the tech industry in droves

#38

Post by sliverstorm »

DiversityWorks wrote: post #16
toolz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is arguing there isn't misogyny in tech. There is misogyny almost everywhere. It's been a part of our culture for a very long time and it will take time and continued efforts to solve the problem, but trying to determine which problems are the most obvious is part of the solution and does nothing to undermine the fact that there is a problem. This doesn't appear to highlight the problem. I'm open…

Go away

A+ rhetorical form, I'm completely sold.

Re: Women are leaving the tech industry in droves

#39

Post by toolz »

sliverstorm wrote: post #37
toolz wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, I apologize for speaking for everyone. Have you never heard a sexist joke at work? That's misogyny in the tech industry. I'm not suggesting it's endemic to tech. I'm merely recognizing that we're not that far removed from a time where women couldn't vote and we still have laws on books that allow men to beat women as punishment in first world countries. Tech has nothing to do with the disease. We're mere…

Have you never heard a sexist joke at work? That's misogyny in the tech industry. Hold on. When my female friends make funny sexist jokes, is that misandry? Sexist jokes are sexist, but I don't think sexist == misoginist/misandrist. EDIT: To be clear, I mean when those women make sexist jokes about men. As in, sexism about/directed at men.

> When my female friends make funny sexist jokes, is that misandry?

No, but it is misogyny. Well, At least my understanding of the word. I may be wrong in how the word is perceived, but I know the strict definition includes prejudice and making jokes that highlight prejudice may not indicate how you make decisions in life, but it puts prejudice in a good light and that has subtle but real impact on how people behave.

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