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Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

nytimes.com

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Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#11

Post by guiambros »

mahranch wrote: post #3

> An anonymous Reddit employee sent a letter to Kleiner’s legal team, asking them to subpoena Reddit employees “for information regarding conflicts with Ellen Pao.” Wow. I had heard about the case, but didn't know the drama had sprawled over to reddit. All things put aside, including my own biases, if I was reddit's board, I'd get rid of her immediately. It doesn't matter whether if her claims are justified, or even…

So you're putting "biases aside", but yet you're suggesting that the board should terminate her immediately, without any investigation. And they should do this because there's one source, anonymous, alluding that she may not have treated Reddit employees properly...

Seriously, I wouldn't call this a well-thought and balanced position, which is the minimum you'd expect from your board.

Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#12

Post by RodericDay »

kchoudhu wrote: post #8
michaelochurch wrote: post #2

I hope she wins, but this issue is a lot bigger than this one case, and what we also need is a new law that holds investors responsible for the conduct of the people they fund. Right now, they can fund frat boys and while the frat boys get sued for sexual harassment or domestic abuse, the investors are scot-free. Indeed, the appeal of Silicon Valley and VC is the disposable company. (As in... don't like what has atta…

There's no way to write a law like this that isn't open to horrific abuse. If investors are going to be held responsible for their management's criminal activities, the law isn't just going to be used in Silicon Valley. I don't want to be held liable the next time I buy a few hundred shares of a company whose managers fuck up and (defraud mortgage borrowers|turn NJ into a superfund site|whatever). I'm generally very…

> "I don't want to be held liable the next time I buy a few hundred shares of a company whose managers fuck up"

how is this fair? we want investors to make intelligent decisions, right? not just play roulette?

Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#13

Post by michaelochurch »

kchoudhu wrote: post #8
michaelochurch wrote: post #2

I hope she wins, but this issue is a lot bigger than this one case, and what we also need is a new law that holds investors responsible for the conduct of the people they fund. Right now, they can fund frat boys and while the frat boys get sued for sexual harassment or domestic abuse, the investors are scot-free. Indeed, the appeal of Silicon Valley and VC is the disposable company. (As in... don't like what has atta…

There's no way to write a law like this that isn't open to horrific abuse. If investors are going to be held responsible for their management's criminal activities, the law isn't just going to be used in Silicon Valley. I don't want to be held liable the next time I buy a few hundred shares of a company whose managers fuck up and (defraud mortgage borrowers|turn NJ into a superfund site|whatever). I'm generally very…

I'm not talking about applying the law to everyone who owns shares. That would be ridiculous, and would take down a large number of employees.

I should have clarified. I want career-making, lead investors to be liable. The people who created Evan Spiegel should be held responsible if he creates a company with a discriminatory culture. Not everyone who holds a few hundred shares; just people who either played a role, by investing, in creating the thing. In other words, investor-bosses, not all investors.

I wouldn't necessarily apply this to all crimes and, in fact, I'd be willing to have a law that only applies to civil claims, since civil court is where most of these cultural failures end up. I'm not going to say that I know all the details of how it should work; only that something needs to hold investors, as managers because that is what they are, responsible for the cultures of the companies they create.

Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#14

Post by michaelochurch »

RodericDay wrote: post #12
kchoudhu wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no way to write a law like this that isn't open to horrific abuse. If investors are going to be held responsible for their management's criminal activities, the law isn't just going to be used in Silicon Valley. I don't want to be held liable the next time I buy a few hundred shares of a company whose managers fuck up and (defraud mortgage borrowers|turn NJ into a superfund site|whatever). I'm generally very…

> "I don't want to be held liable the next time I buy a few hundred shares of a company whose managers fuck up" how is this fair? we want investors to make intelligent decisions, right? not just play roulette?

No, I actually agree with him insofar as such a law would require a definition of "investor" that doesn't hold small, passive investors responsible.

If you're a VC and you fund a frat boy and he creates a discriminatory culture, you should be held financially liable for any sexual harassment cases that come against him, because you created the startup (and, often, his career) and you were his manager, even if the corporate structure allows you to deny the fact on technicalities. (At least, let me go this far: you should be as liable as his manager would be, meaning that you fall hard if you knew or should have known.) If you're an employee who exercised his options, you shouldn't be liable for management's fuckups.

Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#16

Post by birken »

tmpacct1 wrote: post #9

I founded a KP backed company during those years. I'm not longer involved, so I don't have a stake in this. Likewise, I don't have any specific knowledge of the events. At the partners' meeting and other interactions, Pao seemed uninterested and out of place. Their culture seemed to be intense, friendly, joking debate. I don't think it's a gender thing, as I remember Meeker and Lee being incredibly helpful. This whol…

I've seen VCs sleeping during partner meetings. I don't want to defend that type of behavior, but I don't think it is necessarily indicative of some deeper issues.

If your company isn't in the area of expertise of a particular VC, I would imagine those meetings aren't the most exciting thing in the world and it would be easy to be uninterested.

Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#17

Post by bjwbell »

tmpacct1 wrote: post #9

I founded a KP backed company during those years. I'm not longer involved, so I don't have a stake in this. Likewise, I don't have any specific knowledge of the events. At the partners' meeting and other interactions, Pao seemed uninterested and out of place. Their culture seemed to be intense, friendly, joking debate. I don't think it's a gender thing, as I remember Meeker and Lee being incredibly helpful. This whol…

Wow, I wish the nyt piece mentioned the fletcher angle.

Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#18

Post by pen2l »

[deleted] wrote: post #15

[deleted]

Spiegel is at least saying things slanderous of other people, whilst our boy Zuckerbeg expresses his willingness to share private information like social security numbers and other things to his friends of his own site's users: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/14/facebook_trust_dumb/

Zuck: Yeah so if you ever need info about anyone at Harvard

Zuck: Just ask.

Zuck: I have over 4,000 emails, pictures, addresses, SNS

[Redacted Friend's Name]: What? How'd you manage that one?

Zuck: People just submitted it.

Zuck: I don't know why.

Zuck: They "trust me"

Zuck: Dumb fucks

What are you going to do about it? Nothing will happen. Both of these guys are doing well and providing return to the already rich, and that's the way this world works.

edit: commenter above deleted his comment sadly, for whatever it's worth, it was:

> A case in point is Snapchat, the disappearing-message service. Last spring, emails that its chief executive wrote a few years ago to his Stanford fraternity brothers surfaced. They were contemptuous of women to a degree that is unquotable in a newspaper.

But not unquotable on HN: http://valleywag.gawker.com/fuck-bitches-get-leid-the-sleazy... Spiegel's "fuckbitchesgetleid" tagline sums up the theme of the e-mails.

Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#19

Post by [deleted] »

michaelochurch wrote: post #14
RodericDay wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I don't want to be held liable the next time I buy a few hundred shares of a company whose managers fuck up" how is this fair? we want investors to make intelligent decisions, right? not just play roulette?

No, I actually agree with him insofar as such a law would require a definition of "investor" that doesn't hold small, passive investors responsible. If you're a VC and you fund a frat boy and he creates a discriminatory culture, you should be held financially liable for any sexual harassment cases that come against him, because you created the startup (and, often, his career) and you were his manager, even if the cor…

[deleted]

Re: Ellen Pao Suit Against Kleiner Perkins Heads to Trial

#20

Post by rayiner »

pen2l wrote: post #18
[deleted] wrote: post #15

[deleted]

Spiegel is at least saying things slanderous of other people, whilst our boy Zuckerbeg expresses his willingness to share private information like social security numbers and other things to his friends of his own site's users : http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/14/facebook_trust_dumb/ Zuck: Yeah so if you ever need info about anyone at Harvard Zuck: Just ask. Zuck: I have over 4,000 emails, pictures, addresses, S…

NB: I deleted my comment, because I read over the rest of the emails and my feminist rage kind of dissipated. In retrospect, the one about him getting too drunk and accidentally peeing all over some woman's shirt is more representative of the whole set.
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