Why fuel cell cars don't work • Hacker News Board

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#21

Post by rational-future » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:20 PM UTC

crimsonalucard wrote: post #14

Retric wrote: post #3

On solution to the long distance car storage is simply not to. There are less than 50,000 miles of interstate highways in the US. If we added a 3rd rail or similar system for powering cars as they traveled range and efficiency quickly become a non issue. Granted, the interstate highway system would just be the start eventually you would want to cover just about every road. Not to mention safety concerns etc, but it's…

Unlike Europe, most of the urban infrastructure of the United states centers around the automobile. I'm not referring to roads vs train tracks. I'm referring to density Of the population. Our suburban cul De sacs make most forms of rail based public transportation prohibitely expensive to build. Only in a high density city like nyc would this make sense. To address the problem we need to dramitcally change our cities…

US is no longer the center of the world. EU and China have comparable industrial capability. Maybe OP's idea will work for them.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#22

Post by ars » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:20 PM UTC

Hydrogen is a complete dead end. It's too hard to make, ship, store, or use.

But methane is not. Can fuel cells work with methane? I think so, and if they don't work well, then that's where the research should be directed.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#23

Post by crimsonalucard » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:21 PM UTC

crimsonalucard wrote: post #14

Retric wrote: post #3

On solution to the long distance car storage is simply not to. There are less than 50,000 miles of interstate highways in the US. If we added a 3rd rail or similar system for powering cars as they traveled range and efficiency quickly become a non issue. Granted, the interstate highway system would just be the start eventually you would want to cover just about every road. Not to mention safety concerns etc, but it's…

Unlike Europe, most of the urban infrastructure of the United states centers around the automobile. I'm not referring to roads vs train tracks. I'm referring to density Of the population. Our suburban cul De sacs make most forms of rail based public transportation prohibitely expensive to build. Only in a high density city like nyc would this make sense. To address the problem we need to dramitcally change our cities…

I also want to mention that in NYC and many major metropolitan cities in the world, your proposal has already been implemented. It's called a subway.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#24

Post by rsync » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:22 PM UTC

soperj wrote: post #9

r00fus wrote: post #5

The article deftly steps around the real issue: Fuel Cells are entirely an petroleum industry promotion. The goal is to provide a seemingly credible (but in reality completely unworkable) clean alternative so politicians, car companies and oil companies together can work "towards a clean future" while deep down knowing that it's a stalling tactic to keep the petroleum infrastructure in place. Any fuel cell funding su…

I really don't understand the whole cars are in league with big oil. What on earth do the car companies have to get out of it? The big name in the 90s, Ballard, had buy in from a couple of car companies and no oil companies.

"I really don't understand the whole cars are in league with big oil."

I don't know if car manufacturers are in league with big oil per se, but I have heard it argued convincingly that the repair and maintenance costs that are implied by the IC engine and its infrastructure in the car are a huge source of revenue for the entire auto ecosystem, and they just cannot give that up.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#25

Post by gambiting » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:23 PM UTC

graphene wrote: post #13

Gravityloss wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excess wind and solar power can be used to generate hydrogen from water.

Unfortunately, there's no efficient process for that. Efficiency of electrolysis (when not using expensive catalysts) is around 50%.

And that's not even half of the process. Electrolysis produces gaseous hydrogen, it needs to be cooled down to store as a liquid, which requires a LOT of energy as well.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#26

Post by rational-future » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:23 PM UTC

sandstrom wrote: post #17

Gravityloss wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excess wind and solar power can be used to generate hydrogen from water.

I think that with current technology it's more efficient to store that energy in a battery than in the form of hydrogen (hydrogen is just a storage mechanism). But it's a storage mechanism with the huge downside of being available from natural gas, so with widespread use of hydrogen we be equivalent to widespread continuous pumping of huge amounts of CO2 into oceans and the atmosphere. Something which most people con…

Most people you know maybe. Most people I know are quite foolish themselves and repeat whatever their favorite TV station has brainwashed them to believe about the global warming.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#27

Post by IanCal » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:25 PM UTC

hackuser wrote: post #15

soperj wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand the whole cars are in league with big oil. What on earth do the car companies have to get out of it? The big name in the 90s, Ballard, had buy in from a couple of car companies and no oil companies.

> I really don't understand the whole cars are in league with big oil. I'd guess car manufacturers have two economic interests: 1) The less energy for automobiles costs, the more people will use them, and 2) the less economic harm there is from climate change, the more people will use cars. I could see #1 motivating auto manufacturers to support the oil industry, and #2 motivating them to support clean energy.

> #1 motivating auto manufacturers to support the oil industry

Are the energy costs for electric cars higher than those for traditional cars? I thought they were significantly lower.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#28

Post by frankosaurus » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:25 PM UTC

soperj wrote: post #9

r00fus wrote: post #5

The article deftly steps around the real issue: Fuel Cells are entirely an petroleum industry promotion. The goal is to provide a seemingly credible (but in reality completely unworkable) clean alternative so politicians, car companies and oil companies together can work "towards a clean future" while deep down knowing that it's a stalling tactic to keep the petroleum infrastructure in place. Any fuel cell funding su…

I really don't understand the whole cars are in league with big oil. What on earth do the car companies have to get out of it? The big name in the 90s, Ballard, had buy in from a couple of car companies and no oil companies.

Auto companies and oil do have some common enemies. For example, mass transit is a threat to both.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#29

Post by maxerickson » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:25 PM UTC

crimsonalucard wrote: post #18

aetherson wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an extraordinary claim and I'd like to see some evidence that it's anything like possible.

Look up energy efficiency per person in cities like NYC versus Los Angeles. Subways , rail based transportation, and public transportation significantly reduce energy usage per person. The problem is that it's impossible to build these systems in the huge suburban sprawls that make up most of the United states.

The OP is talking about building a third rail for cars. And not just on major transit routes, on every transport route.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#30

Post by rhino369 » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:26 PM UTC

crimsonalucard wrote: post #11

Gravityloss wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excess wind and solar power can be used to generate hydrogen from water.

There is no excess. Renewables do not have anywhere near the capacity to charge a fuel cell automobile economy. Additionally, if there was capacity why not use it to charge lithium batteries?

>Additionally, if there was capacity why not use it to charge lithium batteries?

Cost, weight, and refueling/recharge. Lithium batteries are expensive, heavy, and have a limited lifespan.

I think batteries will win out, but it is not a certainty. Toyota seems to think Fuel cells will win.