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A loophole in immigration law is costing thousands of American jobs

latimes.com

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Re: A loophole in immigration law is costing thousands of American jobs

#51

Post by powertower »

savanaly wrote: post #30
rayiner wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing morally wrong with people grouping together to ensure their own collective prosperity. It's something humans have been doing ever since people banded together to hunt gazelle on the savannah. People throughout history have fought and died to have their own country where they could look after their own interests. It follows that there is no moral obligation on the part of tribes to take all comers, if…

>Indians are much richer than sub-Saharan Africans. But go over there and tell them that they have a moral obligation to allow African immigration. People will laugh at you, if you're lucky. That wouldn't make them right. Humans are humans, doesn't matter what country they were born in. Just because people have been doing it since forever doesn't mean it makes any sense.

> Humans are humans, doesn't matter what country they were born in..

Doesn't matter to who?... The guy in the US? The guy from India that wants to replace the guy in the US? The guy in Africa that wants to replace the guy in India?

And how does the guy in India feel about the guy in Africa taking his job or lowering his salary, does his stand still stand - or was it one-sided all from the start?

Most humans do see nationality, race, and other attributes of the group - even to the extent of killing someone over it.

Re: A loophole in immigration law is costing thousands of American jobs

#52

Post by dogma1138 »

jqm wrote: post #10

I believe having a large technically competent domestic work force is of strategic importance to any modern country. If jobs are outsourced to temporary residents, (especially as wage deflation and reverse discrimination starts occurring), less natives choose to enter the fields or otherwise obtain these skills. They still give the sugar cane industry in Florida large subsidies (even though most sugar is from beets n…

I some how doubt that people who go to MIT do it to get a six figure job after they graduate. There are plenty of much "easier" ways of getting paid six figures, heck there are plenty of "blue collar" jobs in certain fields which some are even related to engineering (and 40 years ago would had engineers filling those positions) which American's seem to not want to even touch.

My GF's dad teach meteorology and welding in Iceland (In Europe and Asia you'll still find that in a Uni), half of his students end up working these days in the states for companies like Caterpillar and the bigger ship yards, their starting salaries are between 80 and 120K and they are crying each year and trying to lobby for grants to get US students into these fields. Oil, Mining, and large scale construction and manufacturing which once were fields dominated by US companies are dying to staff various technical and engineering positions however with the current theme in US higher education they can only get workers these days from E. Europe, Russia and China for the most part.

Pushing some graduates out of software engineering and similar studies might actually be good for the US economy in the long run.

However doing it trough migrant visa's which take in people who are paid near to nothing and can't negotiate better terms since dismissal is equivalent to deportation is really not the way to go.

Re: A loophole in immigration law is costing thousands of American jobs

#53

Post by kbenson »

evanpw wrote: post #50
kbenson wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I believe morally the correct thing to do is not the thing that reduces poverty quickest in the short term, but reduces it the most in the long term. I do not believe economics is a zero-sum game, which would imply that the moral thing to do is to reduce our own fortunes to increase that of others less fortunate. I think that some countries, being extremely successful, can both help guide other countries into…

> Because I believe morally the correct thing to do is not the thing that reduces poverty quickest in the short term, but reduces it the most in the long term. I completely agree with this. It's my take on the evidence that immigrants tend to have little effect on wages of native workers on average (except possibly at the bottom of the education distribution), and huge benefits for the immigrants themselves. (As you…

I agree, I think immigration, to a point, just speeds up the speed at which social and economic change are happening, but doesn't drastically change the trajectory. If that's the case, I think it's largely a matter of whether you are optimistic or pessimistic about the future. There is, of course, the problem that advancing the speed to change causes disruption, and too much disruption can have cascading effects where are hard to predict.

Re: A loophole in immigration law is costing thousands of American jobs

#54

Post by dennisgorelik »

The article implies that american workers deserve better pay than foreigners and even deserve legal protection that would put discriminate foreigners in order to give american workers their jobs back.

There is something deeply wrong with that attitude.

Re: A loophole in immigration law is costing thousands of American jobs

#55

Post by dennisgorelik »

A_COMPUTER wrote: post #22
evanpw wrote: post #15

Let's say for the sake of argument that every Indian immigrant displaces one American from their job. Under what moral calculus is that a bad trade? The per-capita income in India is almost exactly 10 times less than in the US. By American standards, keeping someone from leaving India seems pretty equivalent to condemning them to life-long poverty. Can you imagine someone making (with a straight face) the argument th…

Because I am legally and morally compelled to pay taxes to my country, and in exchange my country is legally and morally compelled to look out for my interests and well-being--not to find the fastest and most economical means to replace me. It's called the social contract, that is my moral calculus.

1) Most of the taxes are paid by businesses and business owners

2) Immigrant workers are paying their taxes as much as you do (or more).

Considering the above and applying your logic, government should remove all restrictions (except security consideration) on bringing foreign workers into the US.

Re: A loophole in immigration law is costing thousands of American jobs

#56

Post by swatow »

falsestprophet wrote: post #9
swatow wrote: post #4

I agree that it's a loophole, although if it was closed, exactly the same number of jobs would be "lost", because there is a cap. The only difference is that different people would get the H-1B's, which would be good for other reasons. There is an even bigger loophole in immigration law, which is that the government turns a blind eye to illegal immigration from Mexico. However saying so is considered "racist" since a…

It surprises me that liberals generally come down on the side unlimited illegal immigration when the people harmed most are marginalized poor workers who are overwhelmingly disadvantaged minorities themselves (lawful black and Hispanic residents). Ironically, driving down the cost of labor is great for rich people who are generally conservative and oppose illegal immigration.

It's useful to decouple social liberalism, i.e. that belief that there is no such thing as White culture, and there is no (cultural) harm from large numbers of immigrants from Mexico, from economic liberalism, i.e. the belief that classical economics doesn't adequately describe the economy.

When you separate these things, it is consistent for an orthodox economist to promote more immigration from Mexico (not sure how a person could ever advocate for illegal immigration) while being a social liberal. In classical economics, immigrations is (1) good for the immigrant (2) bad for the local workers they are competing with and (3) good for the employers. According to classical economics, the net benefit is positive, and so (with appropriate taxation policy) the overall result is good for the nation.

Personally I am orthodox when it comes to economics. The only thing I don't understand is that the liberals apply orthodox economic arguments when it comes to Mexican immigrants, but refuse to apply these same arguments when it comes to H-1B visas.

To me it is clear that their real agenda is to promote non-White immigration, but to keep sentiment against Indian and Chinese immigrants as a safe way to express "racist" thoughts.

Re: A loophole in immigration law is costing thousands of American jobs

#57

Post by chrismcb »

evanpw wrote: post #45
jqm wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more than a leap because it implicitly states that the only way a citizen of India can avoid poverty is to come to the US, and I'm pretty sure there are no shortage of wealthy Indians who became so without immigrating.

Absolutely. I don't mean that it's true on a case-by-case basis, only on average. If you force a large number of Indians who want to move to the US to stay in India, then you will keep a large-but-not-quite-as-large number of people in (relative) poverty.

I don't get it. Are you saying it is ok to force an American into poverty so an Indian can get out of poverty?

Re: A loophole in immigration law is costing thousands of American jobs

#58

Post by chrismcb »

What is the actual loophole, the article doesn't spell it out (or I missed it) it seems that if a company is laying off an employee and then replacing the employee with an h1b employee, then the company has broken the law. I don't see the loophole that is being exploited.

Re: A loophole in immigration law is costing thousands of American jobs

#59

Post by chrismcb »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #54

The article implies that american workers deserve better pay than foreigners and even deserve legal protection that would put discriminate foreigners in order to give american workers their jobs back. There is something deeply wrong with that attitude.

I don't think there was any implication that the American worker deserves more, or that the foreigner deserves less. Just that is what the rates are. And yes, you can't invite a foreign worker into America to displace an American. Most countries have that rule, what is wrong with attitude of a country trying to protect its citizens?

Re: A loophole in immigration law is costing thousands of American jobs

#60

Post by jes »

freehunter wrote: post #43
jes wrote: post #13

I stumble a bit over the concept of American jobs. The jobs belong to the people who are offering them, don't they?

American jobs = jobs in America. Jobs that can be offered to anyone approved by the American government to live and work in the country. Theoretically you could hire anyone. You just couldn't expect them to show up to the office unless the government lets them into the country. If the company doesn't like this, they can let the person work in their own country instead of coming to America, but then that's not an Amer…

That adds clarity, thank you.
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