Announcement: YC alumni will help us read applications • Hacker News Board

Re: Announcement: YC alumni will help us read applications

#91

Post by tianaco » Wed, Oct 28, 2009, 9:14 PM UTC

antonovka wrote: post #74

tianaco wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the beginning, I have found this sexism. People are VERY hesitant to talk about it. I always hope it will go away, but when I consistently walk into meetings and men will not look me in the face and they re-ask my male partner the same questions they ask me... well, you learn from past experiences.

Since the beginning, I have found this sexism. Yes, it's incorrigible and often justified with sophomoric platitudes, even here on HN. ... well, you learn from past experiences. However, the presupposition that someone will be prejudiced against you on the basis of their gender can also be damaging to social interactions -- such as this one.

Yes, it's incorrigible and often justified with sophomoric platitudes, even here on HN.

I can't tell if you're insinuating that I am using sophomoric platitudes, but I hope you respect that I have been trying to speak mostly about my personal experiences.

However, the presupposition that someone will be prejudiced against you on the basis of their gender can also be damaging to social interactions -- such as this one.

I think we all know that people are prejudiced.

Confronting people on their prejudices can be damaging, or it can jolt them out of their complacency and get them to view you with a fresh set of eyes. It usually depends on the person and also how honestly and straightforwardly you present yourself.

Re: Announcement: YC alumni will help us read applications

#92

Post by chrischen » Wed, Oct 28, 2009, 9:16 PM UTC

tianaco wrote: post #41

I feel like this is going to work against me - in a really serious way. First of all, I really liked knowing that I had a one in three chance of a woman, Jessica Livingston, reading my application. I liked how the application felt like a college application; they judge you based upon your potential and what you've done in your circumstances, not like an investor who says: "What experience and traction do you have?".…

Personally I highly doubt their biases will be large enough to discredit, or even affect, the merit you show in your application.

Re: Announcement: YC alumni will help us read applications

#93

Post by tianaco » Wed, Oct 28, 2009, 9:19 PM UTC

chrischen wrote: post #88

tianaco wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's impossible with the video aspect.

I think it says on the app that they view your video if they think the application is promising.

I thought it says they're likely to view your demo if the application is promising... and they like viewing videos.

Re: Announcement: YC alumni will help us read applications

#94

Post by antonovka » Wed, Oct 28, 2009, 9:21 PM UTC

tianaco wrote: post #91

antonovka wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the beginning, I have found this sexism. Yes, it's incorrigible and often justified with sophomoric platitudes, even here on HN. ... well, you learn from past experiences. However, the presupposition that someone will be prejudiced against you on the basis of their gender can also be damaging to social interactions -- such as this one.

Yes, it's incorrigible and often justified with sophomoric platitudes, even here on HN. I can't tell if you're insinuating that I am using sophomoric platitudes, but I hope you respect that I have been trying to speak mostly about my personal experiences. However, the presupposition that someone will be prejudiced against you on the basis of their gender can also be damaging to social interactions -- such as this one…

I can't tell if you're insinuating that I am using sophomoric platitudes, but I hope you respect that I have been trying to speak mostly about my personal experiences.

No, my intention wasn't to slight your concerns; I was attempting to articulate my opinion of sexism in technology and the justifications often used to support it.

Re: Announcement: YC alumni will help us read applications

#95

Post by maxklein » Wed, Oct 28, 2009, 9:21 PM UTC

tianaco wrote: post #45

tianaco wrote: post #41

I feel like this is going to work against me - in a really serious way. First of all, I really liked knowing that I had a one in three chance of a woman, Jessica Livingston, reading my application. I liked how the application felt like a college application; they judge you based upon your potential and what you've done in your circumstances, not like an investor who says: "What experience and traction do you have?".…

I know it's verboten to talk about HN on HN, but it's fun clicking refresh and watching people upvote and downvote my comment. Talking about male prejudice in the tech community really gets under people's skin, including my cofounder bravura who said that maybe I shouldn't have posted and rankled people.

Everyone gets judged. Everyone has prejudices. It's much easier to recognize when others are prejudicial against you than when you are against others.

You know how it is when you discuss technology with men, and first of all, they hold back, assuming you likely don't know or are not interested?

Do you realise you likely do the same thing? If you meet a Mexican gardener, do you not do the same? Why? Why not just starting talking web services with him?

Because you don't expect him to know about the topic. It's your vorurteil, your judgement before knowledge, and it's an essential part of being human. We observe a pattern, and we act on this pattern.

So, yes, there is prejudice. But it's not malicious, it's simply the observation of a way things are, and an expectancy on how they will be. This form of prejudice, you have to accept. They do it to you, and you will do it to me.

That does not mean that in such a case as the YC applications you will be judged differently. You will be judged the same, because the fact that you have gone through the steps that brought you to that application level, means that you are at the same level as all the other people. So this invisible prejudice, this pre-judgement has already fallen away, as the people know what you are already.

Re: Announcement: YC alumni will help us read applications

#96

Post by tianaco » Wed, Oct 28, 2009, 9:21 PM UTC

adrianwaj wrote: post #83

tianaco wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when I occasionally wanted to comment I used bravura's account. I created an account only because the application required one.

well, that's a nice hack. But lessens your karma for the sake of bravura's. A tad shady.

It's only shady if you care about karma.

Re: Announcement: YC alumni will help us read applications

#97

Post by jwhitlark » Wed, Oct 28, 2009, 9:21 PM UTC

adrianwaj wrote: post #39

"They've agreed to (a) stop reading any application that seems like it will compete with something their startup is doing or plans to." You could have an answer-by-answer reveal button, to see who stops reading and when. That'd remove the temptation to break this rule. There could be post-submission round-up by to see if the trust was actually there.

Let's not go overboard. I'd much rather pg and co. put their time into reviewing applications than adding "features" like this. This is, at its heart, a social problem, not a technical one, and needs to be addressed as one.

Re: Announcement: YC alumni will help us read applications

#98

Post by bravura » Wed, Oct 28, 2009, 9:24 PM UTC

antonovka wrote: post #78

bravura wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too am worried about being judged by YC Alumni, much like I worry about being judged by geeks in general. Even though I'm a geek myself (coding for 2/3rd my lifetime, Ph.D. in comp sci, etc.), people usually mistake me for an artist, and that works against me initially. (Later on, when they get to know me, it turns around and they're like: "Oh, it's good you're so well-rounded", but only if I can overcome the initi…

I would be interested to hear how you see your art and technology interests converging.

Designers don't understand what science is capable of, and the scientists don't know how to deliver a consumer-facing product. It's especially good if you have design, technology, and business all in one. By understanding business, technology, and design, I feel like our venture is poised to have a disruptive impact.

If you email me, I will send you a link to our demo.

[edit: My profile plus Googling my name will lead you to my email address.]

Re: Announcement: YC alumni will help us read applications

#99

Post by icey » Wed, Oct 28, 2009, 9:25 PM UTC

tianaco wrote: post #86

icey wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so here's what I don't get: If you think the fact that you're a woman will somehow come out as a negative in the YC application process for you, how do you expect to survive as a startup? I guarantee you succeeding as a company is a lot tougher than filling out a form. Either what you're working on has merit or it doesn't. That doesn't change depending on who reads about it. I don't doubt that you have had chal…

I agree that succeeding as a company is tougher than filling out a form. The YC application seems to be more focused on who you are as a person than on your technology. I highlighted that on the application. But I have a feeling that my accomplishments are not going to be as appreciated by a given YC alum than the original people that wrote the YC application. That's all.

Well, hopefully you'll see this as an opportunity to turn this into a chance to work on your marketing skills to a larger audience. I get the feeling that PG is a tougher person to sell an idea to than most startup founders are.

Re: Announcement: YC alumni will help us read applications

#100

Post by 9oliYQjP » Wed, Oct 28, 2009, 9:26 PM UTC

tianaco wrote: post #45

tianaco wrote: post #41

I feel like this is going to work against me - in a really serious way. First of all, I really liked knowing that I had a one in three chance of a woman, Jessica Livingston, reading my application. I liked how the application felt like a college application; they judge you based upon your potential and what you've done in your circumstances, not like an investor who says: "What experience and traction do you have?".…

I know it's verboten to talk about HN on HN, but it's fun clicking refresh and watching people upvote and downvote my comment. Talking about male prejudice in the tech community really gets under people's skin, including my cofounder bravura who said that maybe I shouldn't have posted and rankled people.

The fact that you're willing to get under people's skin is an asset. Many of the problems we face in the tech community are due to a predominately male culture that lacks the assertiveness to resolve problems in their own favour. We write books that outline our struggles, like The Mythical Man Month, without realizing it isn't tactics that are the source of our problems, but our overall strategy of resigning ourselves to merely follow orders.

Take this very discussion as an example. How many men are secretly wishing that PG reads their application rather than it being read by a YC alumnus, but have posted ass-kissing comments anyway?

For some reason I've worked with far more female programmers than most programmers I know. Here are some things that women are up against in our industry:

1. Being coerced into "lighter" programming tasks like "front end" development, QA, or UX design when their interests lie in more complex programming domains.

2. An assumption of not being aggressive enough to manage a team. To add insult to injury, women that do show aggression are isolated and marginalized for having chips on their shoulders or being bitchy.

3. Dealing with what I call the "little sister" phenomenon. This is where a predominately male development team, in a bid to try to be nice to the one female team member, actually does more harm than good. They become overprotective, try not to hurt her feelings, and are generally patronizing. This affects the types of work loads that are placed on the female team member and what is expected of her.

If it's any consolation, there are men in this industry that have worked with a lot of female programmers and understand as best we can, where you're coming from. For what it's worth, I think you're already one step ahead of most of these other female programmers I know (many are friends so I know them well). Their problem is an unwillingness to shake the boat. You don't seem to have that problem.

Moreover, who cares if you're correct or incorrect? If people read your post properly they would have heard that you were merely describing how you feel. You can't change how you feel about this situation. And like I said at the beginning of this rant, if more men in our industry shared how they felt with others, we might not have to put up with ridiculous time/resource constraints, impossible project objectives, etc.