Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

crowdsupply.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–27 of 27 posts

Re: Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

#21

Post by busterarm »

howardbeware wrote: post #17
busterarm wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm almost certain they originally wanted Cherry Reds for this project but couldn't get their order qty filled by Cherry either due to lack of availability (they're very popular right now) or there being a high MOQ (Cherry's MOQs are super-duper high). If they were really serious about ultra-low activation force, Topre has 30g switches available (not that they could have negotiated that contract), but that's unusably…

We evaluated Cherry Reds for the project, but there were several things wrong with them. In order of our priorities: 1. It's very difficult/expensive to make custom key caps that mount to Cherry MX stems. By custom key cap, I mean a completely new shape, like this: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g_Bi0FseNUk/VGBKMdshu-I/AAAAAAAAAe... We actually did come up with a method for doing this with Cherry MX switches, but the cost…

Okay. Interesting response here. There's some points I hadn't considered.

1. I see your argument here but I also wonder if there are processes that you have not considered. I don't know if you're familiar with ClickClack's keycaps, but that's an artist who does custom shaped keys. I'm 99% positive, as I've done the same process myself, that he sculpts a master, makes a mould and pours resin keycaps. You can make these in huge bulks quickly for cheap this way. Getting the Cherry MX backing is as simple as cutting the stem off a key and gluing it to your top. It makes choices of plastics/resin more difficult (you can't just mix and pour PBT...) but this process is super cheap. Cheaper than 3d printing and cheaper than machining. You can build a vacuum degasser for $50 + an air compressor.

2. Cherry switches can be spring modded to much lower actuation forces. There are places where you can buy 30g-45g switches, in bulk, and it's probably cheaper than tooling them yourself. I honestly can't imagine using less than 45g and maintaining accuracy, especially on something that's basically close to being a chording keyboard like the Stenotype (but then again, I'm not a steno).

4. I guess it doesn't matter for your use case because you have to make your own keycaps, but for someone who will be using the switches for something else this is not true. Regular keycaps for ALPS switches are either going to be substantially more expensive or someone trying to dump old/excess stock. I don't even know where you could get ALPS keycaps made in a group buy -- people have tried. The campaign page is advertising advantages that really don't exist outside of your specific use case.

That's really my only gripe. I don't see where there would be a use case outside of your specific project. I know folks sitting on huge bulks of ALPS switches that are sitting doing nothing because usually nobody wants them. Forgive my myopia.

Alps is an interesting choice for your project, especially since you don't have to worry about stabilizers at all.

Re: Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

#22

Post by busterarm »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #20
howardbeware wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economics of this project aren't based on funding the entire MOQ, which is much more than 3,000 switches. We'll be using many of the switches for our own project, but think there will be plenty left over. The $1,000 funding goal is the amount that makes it worth going through the effort to sort, package, ship, and other logistics. I'll make this clearer on the campaign page. Thanks for the feedback!

That is awesome Howard. If I had a use for 150 switches I would certainly consider contributing. Something else you might add to this page which may help would be an STL file that could be 3D printed for a keycap. Looking at what is provided I don't think there is quite enough information to make one and you would definitely want to test fit it for validation before releasing something like that but it would give fol…

With them using a totally custom shape keycap, a standard keycap would be too far outside the scope for it to be worth their time.

No two makes of Alps keyboard have ever used the same stabilizers I think. Designing that I think would be a pretty big job and Matias has a standard layout for their own boards already (as long as you use Macs).

Re: Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

#23

Post by busterarm »

howardbeware wrote: post #16
pdknsk wrote: post #8

Cherry does have clear housing. http://www.cherry.de/cid/keymodules_CHERRY_MX1A-LxxA_B.htm And the following claim seems a bit dubious to me. > The other contact, pictured above, is gold-plated only on the small area that will actually physically touch the other contact. The reason for this is simply that the process of gold plating weakens the metal being plated, which would reduce the longevity of the key switch.

Thanks for the pointer to the clear Cherry housing. I hadn't seen that. I'll look into it more and update the page accordingly. Regarding the gold plating, what's dubious about this claim?

"Gold-plated connectors" are a common snake-oil in audio electronics. The only benefit it provides is that it doesn't tarnish like copper would. Gold is a worse conductor than copper and it's very soft and brittle. With pieces that are constantly making contact that plating is likely to wear away quickly. You only need it your contact is exposed to air anyway, and then if it is you really need the whole thing to be gold-plated. Also, you'd better have some nickel on between the gold & copper.

If I understand things correctly, anyway.

Re: Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

#24

Post by howardbeware »

busterarm wrote: post #23
howardbeware wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the pointer to the clear Cherry housing. I hadn't seen that. I'll look into it more and update the page accordingly. Regarding the gold plating, what's dubious about this claim?

"Gold-plated connectors" are a common snake-oil in audio electronics. The only benefit it provides is that it doesn't tarnish like copper would. Gold is a worse conductor than copper and it's very soft and brittle. With pieces that are constantly making contact that plating is likely to wear away quickly. You only need it your contact is exposed to air anyway, and then if it is you really need the whole thing to be g…

Ah, yes, I agree that it doesn't make a lick of difference for audio connectors and that advertising gold plating is just a way to jack up the price. For this type of mechanical switch, though, I don't think the copper oxidation would wear away since it's a very light touch and there is very little rubbing movement, just blunt contact. Also, I'm pretty sure that there would be no incentive for companies like Matias to offer gold plating if it weren't really needed - it's just an extra expense and the high-end mechanical switch market is basically nonexistent compared to the high-end audio market.

Re: Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

#25

Post by howardbeware »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #20
howardbeware wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economics of this project aren't based on funding the entire MOQ, which is much more than 3,000 switches. We'll be using many of the switches for our own project, but think there will be plenty left over. The $1,000 funding goal is the amount that makes it worth going through the effort to sort, package, ship, and other logistics. I'll make this clearer on the campaign page. Thanks for the feedback!

That is awesome Howard. If I had a use for 150 switches I would certainly consider contributing. Something else you might add to this page which may help would be an STL file that could be 3D printed for a keycap. Looking at what is provided I don't think there is quite enough information to make one and you would definitely want to test fit it for validation before releasing something like that but it would give fol…

We plan releasing the source files for all custom hardware, including key caps, that we're designing and making for our own keyboard. We have prototypes that we're mostly happy with, but haven't yet nailed down the exact dimensions. Also, our files are in the form that a CNC mill could understand, but as far as I know not suitable yet for a 3D printer. I really like that idea, though, and will keep it in mind for when we do offer our keyboard.

Re: Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

#26

Post by howardbeware »

busterarm wrote: post #21
howardbeware wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We evaluated Cherry Reds for the project, but there were several things wrong with them. In order of our priorities: 1. It's very difficult/expensive to make custom key caps that mount to Cherry MX stems. By custom key cap, I mean a completely new shape, like this: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g_Bi0FseNUk/VGBKMdshu-I/AAAAAAAAAe... We actually did come up with a method for doing this with Cherry MX switches, but the cost…

Okay. Interesting response here. There's some points I hadn't considered. 1. I see your argument here but I also wonder if there are processes that you have not considered. I don't know if you're familiar with ClickClack's keycaps, but that's an artist who does custom shaped keys. I'm 99% positive, as I've done the same process myself, that he sculpts a master, makes a mould and pours resin keycaps. You can make thes…

1. The problem wasn't in creating the shape we wanted - that's easy with CNC. The problem was creating the cross mounting post for Cherry. The process that ended up working was somewhat as you suggested: we basically used a lathe to remove material from a standard key cap until just the post was left and then we attached the post with a good adhesive to our custom key caps. The problem with this process is that it is very expensive in terms of labor/time and requires a high degree of precision to ensure uniformity. I think I might eventually make a keyboard using Cherry MX switches using this process, but for the current project the goal is to produce at least 100 keyboards while keeping the cost down. We tried for several months to make the Cherry MX Red work, but ended up deciding Matias was the better option in this case.

2. Modding key switches works well for a single keyboard, but really causes costs to soar if used in production. This wouldn't work for us because one of the main design points of the keyboard we're working on is making it financially accessible to a wide range of people.

4. This is a fair point. Honestly, I'm not too deep into the mechanical keyboard world beyond this one project, so I don't have a good feeling for other people's use cases. My hope, though, is that people do some really strange things with these switches and start innovating in ways I wouldn't have thought of.

Thanks for all your feedback - it's been really helpful. I haven't yet updated the campaign page to reflect it all, but I will soon.

Post reply on HN