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Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

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Re: Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

#11

Post by ChuckMcM »

busterarm wrote: post #2

So it's an ALPS/Matias switch. Of which there already exist quiet versions. Why do you want money again? The claim that it's easier to get Custom Key Caps for these is an absolute joke. There is very little available in the market for Alps style keycaps vs Cherry MX which is ubiquitous. Injection molding shops would have to have tooling available to make these keycaps. Most of them don't. That's what makes getting cu…

This and the other Cherry comment capture my cynicism as well.

And the reason I'm cynical about it is that they story they offer doesn't seem to make sense to anyone who has purchased key switches for projects.

So lets break it down. $50 donation gets you 150 switches, they are looking to raise $1000. That is twenty $50 chunks, or 3,000 switches. So what they are really saying is that our vendor has a minimum order quantity (MOQ) of 3,000 switches, and if you all buy some, together we'll get switches and you'll get switches. That at least would be an honest narrative. And hey its helping the Open Steno project so its got that going for it.

Re: Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

#12

Post by busterarm »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #11
busterarm wrote: post #2

So it's an ALPS/Matias switch. Of which there already exist quiet versions. Why do you want money again? The claim that it's easier to get Custom Key Caps for these is an absolute joke. There is very little available in the market for Alps style keycaps vs Cherry MX which is ubiquitous. Injection molding shops would have to have tooling available to make these keycaps. Most of them don't. That's what makes getting cu…

This and the other Cherry comment capture my cynicism as well. And the reason I'm cynical about it is that they story they offer doesn't seem to make sense to anyone who has purchased key switches for projects. So lets break it down. $50 donation gets you 150 switches, they are looking to raise $1000. That is twenty $50 chunks, or 3,000 switches. So what they are really saying is that our vendor has a minimum order q…

The sad thing is, if they went on GeekHack or Deskthority, they might just be able to find 20 people willing to group buy Alps switches.

Might.

Re: Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

#13

Post by bryanlarsen »

busterarm wrote: post #2

So it's an ALPS/Matias switch. Of which there already exist quiet versions. Why do you want money again? The claim that it's easier to get Custom Key Caps for these is an absolute joke. There is very little available in the market for Alps style keycaps vs Cherry MX which is ubiquitous. Injection molding shops would have to have tooling available to make these keycaps. Most of them don't. That's what makes getting cu…

By custom key cap they mean custom shape. Not custom label. For cherry that will cost you $50k to make the mold. Alps you can mill yourself out of wood.

Re: Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

#14

Post by howardbeware »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #13
busterarm wrote: post #2

So it's an ALPS/Matias switch. Of which there already exist quiet versions. Why do you want money again? The claim that it's easier to get Custom Key Caps for these is an absolute joke. There is very little available in the market for Alps style keycaps vs Cherry MX which is ubiquitous. Injection molding shops would have to have tooling available to make these keycaps. Most of them don't. That's what makes getting cu…

By custom key cap they mean custom shape. Not custom label. For cherry that will cost you $50k to make the mold. Alps you can mill yourself out of wood.

I'm one of the people behind this project. Yes, the custom key shapes + low activation force are the primary reason we're interested in creating these key switches.

Re: Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

#15

Post by howardbeware »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #11
busterarm wrote: post #2

So it's an ALPS/Matias switch. Of which there already exist quiet versions. Why do you want money again? The claim that it's easier to get Custom Key Caps for these is an absolute joke. There is very little available in the market for Alps style keycaps vs Cherry MX which is ubiquitous. Injection molding shops would have to have tooling available to make these keycaps. Most of them don't. That's what makes getting cu…

This and the other Cherry comment capture my cynicism as well. And the reason I'm cynical about it is that they story they offer doesn't seem to make sense to anyone who has purchased key switches for projects. So lets break it down. $50 donation gets you 150 switches, they are looking to raise $1000. That is twenty $50 chunks, or 3,000 switches. So what they are really saying is that our vendor has a minimum order q…

The economics of this project aren't based on funding the entire MOQ, which is much more than 3,000 switches. We'll be using many of the switches for our own project, but think there will be plenty left over. The $1,000 funding goal is the amount that makes it worth going through the effort to sort, package, ship, and other logistics. I'll make this clearer on the campaign page. Thanks for the feedback!

Re: Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

#16

Post by howardbeware »

pdknsk wrote: post #8

Cherry does have clear housing. http://www.cherry.de/cid/keymodules_CHERRY_MX1A-LxxA_B.htm And the following claim seems a bit dubious to me. > The other contact, pictured above, is gold-plated only on the small area that will actually physically touch the other contact. The reason for this is simply that the process of gold plating weakens the metal being plated, which would reduce the longevity of the key switch.

Thanks for the pointer to the clear Cherry housing. I hadn't seen that. I'll look into it more and update the page accordingly.

Regarding the gold plating, what's dubious about this claim?

Re: Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

#17

Post by howardbeware »

busterarm wrote: post #9
pdknsk wrote: post #8

Cherry does have clear housing. http://www.cherry.de/cid/keymodules_CHERRY_MX1A-LxxA_B.htm And the following claim seems a bit dubious to me. > The other contact, pictured above, is gold-plated only on the small area that will actually physically touch the other contact. The reason for this is simply that the process of gold plating weakens the metal being plated, which would reduce the longevity of the key switch.

I'm almost certain they originally wanted Cherry Reds for this project but couldn't get their order qty filled by Cherry either due to lack of availability (they're very popular right now) or there being a high MOQ (Cherry's MOQs are super-duper high). If they were really serious about ultra-low activation force, Topre has 30g switches available (not that they could have negotiated that contract), but that's unusably…

We evaluated Cherry Reds for the project, but there were several things wrong with them. In order of our priorities:

1. It's very difficult/expensive to make custom key caps that mount to Cherry MX stems. By custom key cap, I mean a completely new shape, like this:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g_Bi0FseNUk/VGBKMdshu-I/AAAAAAAAAe...

We actually did come up with a method for doing this with Cherry MX switches, but the cost was prohibitive. I'll add more detail on the campaign page to make this clear.

2. The actuation force of Cherry MX Reds was just a bit too high. We're making a stenotype keyboard, which should have a very light touch. The Cherry MX Red might have been marginally acceptable, but we're much happier with the lower actuation force of our switch.

3. As you pointed out, the availability of Cherry MX Reds isn't great.

4. The price of Cherry MX Reds is much higher.

Regarding the Topre switches, I agree that 30g is almost too low. Also, the mounting post for the Topre switches seemed challenging from the perspective of creating custom key caps, though we didn't actually try.

As for the openness of the project and there being only one manufacturer, is your concern about availability, control of the IP, or something else?

Re: Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

#18

Post by howardbeware »

busterarm wrote: post #2

So it's an ALPS/Matias switch. Of which there already exist quiet versions. Why do you want money again? The claim that it's easier to get Custom Key Caps for these is an absolute joke. There is very little available in the market for Alps style keycaps vs Cherry MX which is ubiquitous. Injection molding shops would have to have tooling available to make these keycaps. Most of them don't. That's what makes getting cu…

There are quiet versions of Matias switches, but they are all clicky, which we explicitly don't want because even quiet clicky switches are loud and because of the associated fatigue. Our switch is quiet and non-clicky, which up until now hasn't existed in the Matias line.

I'm not sure I understand your question about wanting money. As much as it would be great to give them away for free, the reality is that it cost us money to produce them and it will cost us money to ship them. We're running this campaign in order to simplify the logistics of offering our extra keys to other people.

Regarding custom key caps, another commentator was correct in saying that we're milling entirely custom shapes from raw materials (aluminum in our case).

As for the circulation of Cherry MX Reds, I could only find them available in small quantities for what seemed to be very high prices, when I could find them in stock at all. The Cherry MX is a great line of switches, but Cherry is doing a poor job of helping people (well, me at least) make new products.

I haven't noticed the Matias switches being super wobbly, but I also don't have a full keyboard built yet. I'll keep an eye out for this.

Re: Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

#19

Post by howardbeware »

busterarm wrote: post #5
TrainedMonkey wrote: post #3

For $50 you can get a bag of 150 keys. That comes out to $0.33 cents per switch which is really close to their estimated unit price without shipping of $0.30.

Because of the low popularity of ALPS keycaps, the cost and MOQ of the caps themselves are significantly higher. This is the more expensive way to go.

Since we're manufacturing the key caps ourselves, it's actually a much cheaper way to go for us.

Re: Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

#20

Post by ChuckMcM »

howardbeware wrote: post #15
ChuckMcM wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This and the other Cherry comment capture my cynicism as well. And the reason I'm cynical about it is that they story they offer doesn't seem to make sense to anyone who has purchased key switches for projects. So lets break it down. $50 donation gets you 150 switches, they are looking to raise $1000. That is twenty $50 chunks, or 3,000 switches. So what they are really saying is that our vendor has a minimum order q…

The economics of this project aren't based on funding the entire MOQ, which is much more than 3,000 switches. We'll be using many of the switches for our own project, but think there will be plenty left over. The $1,000 funding goal is the amount that makes it worth going through the effort to sort, package, ship, and other logistics. I'll make this clearer on the campaign page. Thanks for the feedback!

That is awesome Howard. If I had a use for 150 switches I would certainly consider contributing. Something else you might add to this page which may help would be an STL file that could be 3D printed for a keycap. Looking at what is provided I don't think there is quite enough information to make one and you would definitely want to test fit it for validation before releasing something like that but it would give folks most everything they needed for building a custom keyboard.
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