Do the English Use More Words Than the French? • Hacker News Board

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#11

Post by beloch » Fri, Feb 20, 2015, 8:49 PM UTC

The findings of this study are unrelated to the title of this post.

First, the authors and books were not chosen randomly and the sample size is tiny, so the results are meaningless, although I do respect the effort that was put into this. The author is up-front and honest about this in the beginning, but unfortunately proceeds to draw unwarranted generalizations based on his study.

Second, even if a similar, but much larger, study were conducted on randomly selected authors and books, the results would still conflate the vocabulary size in common usage with the vocabulary size of single authors. Hence, what the article is attempting to study is not the same thing as the title of this post.

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#12

Post by coverup » Fri, Feb 20, 2015, 8:59 PM UTC

blumkvist wrote: post #8

S4M wrote: post #3

I notice that four of the seven authors with the smallest vocabulary are writing theater (Moliere, Shakespeare, Racine, Corneille). I think it's not a coincidence, because writing in rhymes must be a hard constraint in the choice of words one can use.

Rhyming is part of the problem. Playwrights' work has to be remembered by the actors by heart. Also, the ones you mentioned lived in the 16th century, when languages were not very sophisticated.

I'm not sure what you mean by "sophisticated". Languages in the 16th century were just as complex as they always have been.

The vocabularies might be bigger or smaller compared to today. Certainly no one was saying "bae" back then (for instance), but no one calls each other "thou" today, either.

EDIT: except for the older generations of Geordies, apparently.

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#13

Post by pash » Fri, Feb 20, 2015, 9:07 PM UTC

beloch wrote: post #11

The findings of this study are unrelated to the title of this post. First, the authors and books were not chosen randomly and the sample size is tiny, so the results are meaningless, although I do respect the effort that was put into this. The author is up-front and honest about this in the beginning, but unfortunately proceeds to draw unwarranted generalizations based on his study. Second, even if a similar, but muc…

I think the most unwarranted generalization is yours. The author clearly did not mean to do what you criticize him for failing to do.

But I suppose we could ask the mods to change the submission title. How about this?—"One blogger's analysis of the size of the vocabularies employed by some of his favorite French- and English-language writers, neither claiming nor achieving statistically significant insights into the question of whether French- (on the one hand) or English-speaking peoples (on the other) use more words in common usage."

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#14

Post by mc32 » Fri, Feb 20, 2015, 9:09 PM UTC

pash wrote: post #7

S4M wrote: post #3

I notice that four of the seven authors with the smallest vocabulary are writing theater (Moliere, Shakespeare, Racine, Corneille). I think it's not a coincidence, because writing in rhymes must be a hard constraint in the choice of words one can use.

A keen observation, and Wilde really makes it four and a half. But Shakespeare wrote mostly blank verse, and rhyming is not as much of a constraint on vocabulary in French due to the high commonality of word endings. If it's true that works for the stage tend to use fewer words, it might be because dialogue dominates; I imagine narrative, which consists more of description, naturally draws on a bigger vocabulary than…

I'd be interested in philosophical tomes being analyzed. They seem to contain an oversized amount of low frequency words.

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#15

Post by tramjoe_ » Fri, Feb 20, 2015, 9:13 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #6

tomcam wrote: post #2

A model of presentation of data. Its clarity belies the variety of techniques used. Perfect use of word clouds. Thank you.

I have to strongly, strongly disagree. There is no "perfect use" of word clouds in the context of proper data visualization. The arrangement and colorization of the words are virtually on account of randomization (and the sizing of words based on frequency is of dubious value, given how difficult it is for the human eye to evaluate the size comparison)...this randomness is anathema to the proper presentation of data.…

What about monochrome, single word-orientation word clouds? Font size is one axis, and I guess the only remaining noise is word placement.

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#16

Post by pothibo » Fri, Feb 20, 2015, 9:14 PM UTC

pash wrote: post #7

S4M wrote: post #3

I notice that four of the seven authors with the smallest vocabulary are writing theater (Moliere, Shakespeare, Racine, Corneille). I think it's not a coincidence, because writing in rhymes must be a hard constraint in the choice of words one can use.

A keen observation, and Wilde really makes it four and a half. But Shakespeare wrote mostly blank verse, and rhyming is not as much of a constraint on vocabulary in French due to the high commonality of word endings. If it's true that works for the stage tend to use fewer words, it might be because dialogue dominates; I imagine narrative, which consists more of description, naturally draws on a bigger vocabulary than…

How is french easier to rhyme than english? Do you have empirical evidence?

Since I'm a french canadian who is lucky enough to speak the two languages, I find it difficult to believe.

Remember that rap (rhyme and poetry) was popularized by poor english speaking people.

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#17

Post by dsp1234 » Fri, Feb 20, 2015, 9:16 PM UTC

pash wrote: post #13

beloch wrote: post #11

The findings of this study are unrelated to the title of this post. First, the authors and books were not chosen randomly and the sample size is tiny, so the results are meaningless, although I do respect the effort that was put into this. The author is up-front and honest about this in the beginning, but unfortunately proceeds to draw unwarranted generalizations based on his study. Second, even if a similar, but muc…

I think the most unwarranted generalization is yours. The author clearly did not mean to do what you criticize him for failing to do. But I suppose we could ask the mods to change the submission title. How about this?—"One blogger's analysis of the size of the vocabularies employed by some of his favorite French- and English-language writers, neither claiming nor achieving statistically significant insights into the…

Or maybe:

"Do the English Use More Words Than the French? I don't know, and what I did to test it doesn't tell me anything concrete"

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#18

Post by pash » Fri, Feb 20, 2015, 9:26 PM UTC

dsp1234 wrote: post #17

pash wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the most unwarranted generalization is yours. The author clearly did not mean to do what you criticize him for failing to do. But I suppose we could ask the mods to change the submission title. How about this?—"One blogger's analysis of the size of the vocabularies employed by some of his favorite French- and English-language writers, neither claiming nor achieving statistically significant insights into the…

Or maybe: "Do the English Use More Words Than the French? I don't know, and what I did to test it doesn't tell me anything concrete"

Or: "Once again, the intent of this blog post is clear from its opening paragraphs (some readers' abiding dissatisfaction with its title notwithstanding), aforementioned intent being not to analyze patterns of general usage of the French and English languages in a statistically rigorous way but to offer an entertaining and well presented disquisition on some really quite insignificant but nonetheless amusing points related to the vocabularies of selected French and English writers of the author's own choosing (aforementioned dissatisfied readers nevertheless succeeding in cluttering up the comments on Hacker News with their whinging)"?

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#19

Post by blumkvist » Fri, Feb 20, 2015, 9:26 PM UTC

coverup wrote: post #12

blumkvist wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rhyming is part of the problem. Playwrights' work has to be remembered by the actors by heart. Also, the ones you mentioned lived in the 16th century, when languages were not very sophisticated.

I'm not sure what you mean by "sophisticated". Languages in the 16th century were just as complex as they always have been. The vocabularies might be bigger or smaller compared to today. Certainly no one was saying "bae" back then (for instance), but no one calls each other "thou" today, either. EDIT: except for the older generations of Geordies, apparently.

What I mean is that in the 16th century there were much less words than today, or let's say the 19th century.

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#20

Post by pcrh » Fri, Feb 20, 2015, 9:35 PM UTC

S4M wrote: post #3

I notice that four of the seven authors with the smallest vocabulary are writing theater (Moliere, Shakespeare, Racine, Corneille). I think it's not a coincidence, because writing in rhymes must be a hard constraint in the choice of words one can use.

Perhaps the reason is not the necessity to rhyme, but to be popular; being prolix might be a deterrent to popularity.

Even if so, I find the conclusion unexpected, as Shakespeare not only had a wide popularity in his day, but also coined many new words into the English language.