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Too much finance is bad for the economy

economist.com

51–60 of 214 posts

Re: Too much finance is bad for the economy

#51
post #4

"Too much finance is bad for the economy. Please pay us to hear our reasoning."

"Or, don't pay us and get used to getting your news/op-eds in GIF form through Buzzfeed" What would you rather have?

This supposes that you must EITHER accept cluttered, lowest common denominator content OR a monetization scheme from 1930 shoehorned into the internet. My point is that _Finance_ (as opposed to the simple desire to pay rent) has resulted in paywalls on websites. So in essence I'm agreeing with the article all while circumventing their attempts at getting me to pay.

Re: Too much finance is bad for the economy

#52

I'm an engineer. I could go into a high-risk career trying to cure cancer, or I could flip houses. By my (admittedly rough and speculative) math, I'd make more money doing the second. This has nothing to do with finance and everything to do with how capitalism privileges owners. Just because I can do something (e.g. cure cancer) doesn't mean I should do it out of some regard for the "public good", requiring great sac…

In a way this is partly a good thing. If everyone focused on going to space or curing cancer and were unsuccessful for quite some time we'd be in trouble. While there is a place for these endeavors and they are very important we have to be careful not to allocate too much focus to them.

Re: Too much finance is bad for the economy

#53
A huge part of the problem is where modern finance goes, i.e. what it finances, and why.

The traditional definition of a bank as a middleman between savers and businesses is very, very wrong.

Almost all bank financing is directed at existing assets, mainly real estate, and that financing is unconstrained by deposits.

Therefore it is mainly speculative and parasitic, rather than investment-oriented and productive. It is also self-reinforcing in that finance drives up prices which become collateral for more finance... and so on.

Hence... inequality, stagnation, and the rest.

Adair Turner gives a good overview here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVQdeb0EdWA

Re: Too much finance is bad for the economy

#54
The US finance industry uses self-generated work which generates commissions.

One of the drivers behind this is the tax preference for debt over dividends. There's been a trillion dollars worth of stock buybacks since 2008, an action taken mostly to reduce taxes. That generates work for Wall Street, and wealth for those "near the money", working on various deals.

Then there are "hedge funds". Hedge funds, as a class, underperform the market, partly because of their excessive fees. The traditional hedge fund fee is "2 and 20", or 2% of the amount invested each year plus 20% of gains. This, too, is self-generated activity of Wall Street.

Then there are Exchange Traded Funds. Regular mutual funds are priced once a day, after the market closes. ETFs are constantly traded, generating commissions. ETFs have some tax advantages over regular mutual funds, and are thus another exploit of a flaw in tax policy. They can also be shorted and optioned, which are zero-sum operations which do nothing for the economy.

Then there's high-frequency trading, which is a form of front-running. This skims a tiny percentage off of other transactions.

None of this contributes to capital formation, and most of it was illegal a few decades ago.

Re: Too much finance is bad for the economy

#55
post #41
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the current standard of living the ideal? Why not 10 years ago, or 10 years into the future? How about 20? 30?

I don't think that the current standard of living is ideal and I really hope it will improve a lot. But I don't see that improving the standard of living requires economic growth, I think change will do.

This is a common misconception about economic growth. Economic growth often means more physical stuff, but there is by no means a fixed link between the two. Higher quality products built out of the same amount of physical stuff have a higher price, for example, so if we somehow transitioned the economy in that direction, there would be economic growth - and a corresponding increase in the standard of living - without pushing environmental concerns, for example.

Re: Too much finance is bad for the economy

#56

No, a large financial sector is an indicator of inefficiencies elsewhere. Else, there wouldn't be a reason to pay middlemen to solve said inefficiencies.

The financial sector does a lot more than play middle man (in fact arbitrage is so quickly found these days its a hard to make much money doing this anymore)

Primarily, they invest. Putting money into places that need capital and will likely grow.

Re: Too much finance is bad for the economy

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't say I agree with these statements. I would wager that the scale of money a rapidly growing finance sector is using is more important than an unsubstantiated claim of industry brain-drain.

Totally agree. When the finance sector grows, demands for return interest on capital investment intensifies, acting as a gravity-well for capital away from development. Firms like Goldman make every investment require higher and higher returns at a greater and greater scale. Money chasing money. Casino economy. Instead of opening a new line of business, your profits must be funneled into paying back on that loan at h…

The finance sector does more than lend/invest capital themselves. Large investment banks provide a wide range of services for companies (e.g. bond issues, IPOs, secondary offerings, working out M&A deals, brokerage services, ...). The biggest problem with the finance sector is that it is extremely opaque and almost no one outside the industry understands what financial institutions actually do. Yet, everyone seems to know that banks are bad.

Which is better: a bright graduate working on making a large web company's advertising algorithms slightly more efficient or the same person working for an investment bank on a bond deal that helps a biotech company raise more money for future R&D?

Re: Too much finance is bad for the economy

#58

No, a large financial sector is an indicator of inefficiencies elsewhere. Else, there wouldn't be a reason to pay middlemen to solve said inefficiencies.

I think that assumes that the market is rational. Could it not be an indicator of increasing corruption instead?

A banker gets paid to allocate capital, manage risk, and so on, and gets to share in some profits as an incentive to make the correct decisions. Take the reward and allocate it towards bribing politicians to remove restrictions on banking, accumulate more money, spend more money on "lobbying" or "campaign contributions" (that is, more bribery). Lather, rinse and repeat for 3 decades or so, and suddenly you're not being paid a rational amount for improving market efficiency, you're just bleeding off money from the economy. Become "too big to fail", reap the rewards of risky investments that pay off, dump the cost of failed investments on the public purse, reinvest the money to skew regulations in your favour even more, profit.

Re: Too much finance is bad for the economy

#59
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bankers are middlemen and gatekeepers. Unlike pool cleaners, doctors, cooks and gardeners.

Not always. Finance is a pretty big industry and its hard to make a sweeping generalization like this. For example, let's look at your checking account. A banker's not a middleman here - they're providing a service that allows you to keep you money safe for free while they invest it and assume the risk. Seems like a good service to me.

The bank doesn't invest your money. You lend it to them and receive very little interest in return. They separately create brand new money to provide loans to other people, mainly for purchase of existing assets. At no point is your money given to anyone else.

Update: Having been down-voted below zero... I would encourage everyone to visit the Fed, BoE, ECB, BIS etc. websites and discover how money is created. We would not be in our current economic state if this was better understood.

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarte...

Re: Too much finance is bad for the economy

#60
post #4

"Too much finance is bad for the economy. Please pay us to hear our reasoning."

"Or, don't pay us and get used to getting your news/op-eds in GIF form through Buzzfeed" What would you rather have?

It's never quite that extreme. I've yet to see a respected publisher devolve into GIF-delivered content out of financial constraints.

That said, there are plenty of free publications with quality writing. Paying for an article hardly correlates with its excellence.

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