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Why Rockstar Developers Don't Ask for Help

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Re: Why Rockstar Developers Don't Ask for Help

#31
post #26

It's also important to ask questions well: "here's what I did and what I expected, but this happened instead. Here's what else I've tried and researched before asking you, and these are the things I'm not sure about". Forming a good question often leads to the answer in of itself. By writing it down and emailing it instead, the person can answer it at their own leisure, and the response can be easily shared with the…

I second this.

When you frame the question to ask so someone for help sometimes you tend to get the answer yourself. I've been practicing rubber duck debugging for a while and it has proved quite successful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging

Re: Why Rockstar Developers Don't Ask for Help

#32

I think "never ask for help" is bad advice -- it's actually about asking good questions, not never asking for help. What makes a "good question" is a topic unto itself. But if you make sure you have a good question first -- sometimes you realize that in formulating the question you've solved it for yourself anyway (rubber ducky), or know how to get the answer from documentation (or... google) without bothering a co-w…

sometimes you realize that in formulating the question you've solved it for yourself anyway

This has happened to me countless times.

Re: Why Rockstar Developers Don't Ask for Help

#33
post #2

> Spend more time trying to figure things out for yourself before asking for help. Isn't this obvious and don't most developers want to do this? I work with someone who basically refuses to figure things out for himself and goes from person to person trying to get us to tell him how to develop something. Eventually he throws so much cruft at a project until it works. It's been years and he asks the same questions. I'…

You are correct, and this is a pervasive problem. When I was a tutor, I learned to answer their questions not directly, but showing them how the material they already have can supply it. "Well, let's start with the index, , ok, let's read chapter four from the top, together ..."

So the same thing could be applied, "Lets go to your desk, let's look at the manual together, why don't we google together" etc.

The lesson to the student is, "I could do this faster myself", and they'll stop asking you unless they really need it.

Re: Why Rockstar Developers Don't Ask for Help

#34
Can we please drop the "rockstar" crap? You are writing code, not performing live in makeup and snorting lines off of adoring groupies. I don't care how great you think your Node module is, you are not the Jimi Hendrix of 2050.

And this kind of thinking affects your values. You are supposed to do a good solid job that results in something useful, not impress people with your riffs or your artistic vision. Nobody is impressed except you. Make the tests pass and fix shit when it blows up and GET OVER YOURSELF

Re: Why Rockstar Developers Don't Ask for Help

#35

I think "never ask for help" is bad advice -- it's actually about asking good questions, not never asking for help. What makes a "good question" is a topic unto itself. But if you make sure you have a good question first -- sometimes you realize that in formulating the question you've solved it for yourself anyway (rubber ducky), or know how to get the answer from documentation (or... google) without bothering a co-w…

I think there's a lesson here, but it's not "Don't ask for help, even all the time."

To the contrary, I'd say something like: Ask yourself for help, first. If that didn't work, you might have a worthwhile question. This also requires you to be open to other people asking for help, and my greatest worry about this rule of thumb is that it makes people disinclined to help _each_ _other_. We're not cogs, human teams have value for good reason, and it's not just design or architecture decisions.

Sometimes we need to be "sounding boards" for each other.

Years ago, I'd get pulled into ridiculous flamewars on open-source mailing lists when I had run into a relatively simple issue. I was annoyed that each time I asked for help - the type of help I often provided myself - that inevitably whomever was paying attention to the list at that time of day would jump all over me and treat me like a n00b. I didn't want to come out restating my entire experience with a project before answering a question, but these flamewars aside, I found that often people would help anyway, but that sometimes the answers made me feel dumb.

This came down to asking well-informed questions. I would try to predict the clarifying questions that I would have, esp at my most cynical or annoyed time of the day, for someone else. I would end up with a page and a half describing my question, something some people might TL;DR, but probably wouldn't solicit a bunch of one-liner insults.

Ninety percent of the time, in composing such a message, I was able to answer my own questions. Unfortunately, that means that my presence in mailing list archives has my worst work, and that much of these messages never saw the light of day. I would just have an "ah-HA!" moment, along the lines of:

-- "And then even though I already tuned the kernel settings as recommended in [2], and installed the proper dependencies from the PP --- OH SHIT! I'm using the default packages and not the ones from the PPA."

Discard Draft Problem solved. ;) --

In these situations, I actually avoided asking other people for help by asking myself a question, but if I had been able to complete explaining my problem and my confusion to my satisfaction, I'd simply hit 'send'.

Dealing with people in-person is a little different, that's where the 'sounding board' comes in. If you respect your teammates, you can just kind of spitball a little about, "Hum this is really frustrating, are you kidding, Feature X in Package Y is implemented with a Dorner-Lannister sort? The Fuck? How stupid is.." And an intrepid teammate may say something like:

-- "Yeah. I mean. I'm not sure that's the decision I would have made, but I spent a good two days fighting with this exact problem a couple of months back, let me find you a mailing list thread. It will make you furious, then you can go outside and have a walk. Then come back inside and do it that way, so that you can get on with life." --

Or such conversations may be less existential:

-- SMASH SMASH SMASH keyboard "What in the actual fuck?! I can't stand cut! How has civilization progressed so far without a better way to grab output separated by variable lengths of spaces?"

"Bro, do you /even/ awk?" --

:-P

Re: Why Rockstar Developers Don't Ask for Help

#36
post #9
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not asking for help / debugging yourself helps you make a leap to a better understanding of the language. You will certainly remember the next time you see that bug and over time, you build up your own knowledge so you have ask for help less. Asking for help is just short-term greedy: solves things now but doesn't help you (or your company) in the long-term.

Not asking for help / debugging yourself helps you make a leap to a better understanding of the language Or it'll mean that you repeat the same mistake over and over because you wrongly believe that you understand something. If you don't check with a third party you have no way to know if you're doing things the best possible way. Or even the right way.

*If you don't check with a third party you have no way to know if you're doing things the best possible way. Or even the right way.

Wrong. How do you verify that the third party is correct?

Re: Why Rockstar Developers Don't Ask for Help

#37
post #9
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not asking for help / debugging yourself helps you make a leap to a better understanding of the language. You will certainly remember the next time you see that bug and over time, you build up your own knowledge so you have ask for help less. Asking for help is just short-term greedy: solves things now but doesn't help you (or your company) in the long-term.

Not asking for help / debugging yourself helps you make a leap to a better understanding of the language Or it'll mean that you repeat the same mistake over and over because you wrongly believe that you understand something. If you don't check with a third party you have no way to know if you're doing things the best possible way. Or even the right way.

I consider that to be asking for feedback, not help.

Re: Why Rockstar Developers Don't Ask for Help

#38
post #3

I think this is a dangerous and terrible rule of thumb that will definitely damage culture. It's such an egotistical view that you're so smart, you don't need anyone to help you ever. I would rather work with a bunch of "non-rockstars" than a bunch of assholes. IMO, this deification destroys values like modesty and is generally counterproductive. If you're really looking to save everyone time, a good balance may be t…

However, it's good advice if we think about just being competent instead of being a smart deified rockstar.

If you are handed a spec and documentation for all the APIs you will need to use, and instead of reading or thinking about anything you just demand that I walk you through it one step at a time, all day, there is a plain old competence issue and it is wasting time.

Often it really is better for someone to just try to figure it out for a while, even if it takes them a lot longer. You don't learn with people telling you every single little detail.

Re: Why Rockstar Developers Don't Ask for Help

#39
post #25

I reject this terminology. Anyhow junior developers should ask for help. And senior developers should ask for help too when they're actually stumped. Let's not suffer in silence and make a mess to clean up later.

This can be overdone too. It depends on whether the junior developer has even tried or thought about it before asking for help. If the rule is to ask first and always, the junior developer might as well not be there because the senior developer is doing all the work awkwardly via the junior developer, and the junior developer is not learning how to do anything except say "what now" to the senior developer all day.

Re: Why Rockstar Developers Don't Ask for Help

#40
post #26

It's also important to ask questions well: "here's what I did and what I expected, but this happened instead. Here's what else I've tried and researched before asking you, and these are the things I'm not sure about". Forming a good question often leads to the answer in of itself. By writing it down and emailing it instead, the person can answer it at their own leisure, and the response can be easily shared with the…

1) Asking good questions is important, the process of forming a good question will often lead you to your solution.

2) Giving good answers is also important. You could show the person asking the question how to solve their problem, or you could show the person how to find the solution to that problem.

3) Even if you are asking good questions and getting good answers, there is still value in having to force your way past a problem to a solution. Not only does it teach resilience, but the struggle to find the solution can teach you many things that are tangential to the problem

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