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Who Can Save the Grand Canyon?

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Re: Who Can Save the Grand Canyon?

#71

Post by mikestew »

VieElm wrote: post #9
sosuke wrote: post #7

I couldn't get a real sense of just where this development wanted to be, what it looked like: http://grandcanyonescalade.com/comparison-chart-grand-canyon... That monstrosity should absolutely not be built.

Do you live in Arizona? Are you affected by this in any sense? Why shouldn't the people who live there have the say in it. It's jobs for them, it's their home. The Grand Canyon is thousands of feet deep and hundreds of miles long, it formed millions of years ago. It doesn't need to be "saved" from a tourist attraction that will be a blip on a tiny side of the canyon and an even smaller blip in the history of it. The…

Where I live doesn't matter, as long as I live in the US, because it's a national park. The locals don't get a special stake to it so that they can trash it up as they see fit. Which is a strong argument for national parks in the first place.

Re: Who Can Save the Grand Canyon?

#72

Post by gumby »

They should all be sent a copy of "A Pattern Language". In one of the most memorable patterns, Christopher Alexander writes (paraphrased), "Find the most lovely location on your plot of land. Then make sure you don't build on it! Instead build elsewhere so you can continue to enjoy that lovely location."

Re: Who Can Save the Grand Canyon?

#73

Post by 727374 »

danielweber wrote: post #47
japhyr wrote: post #4

A gondola ride to the bottom of the Grand Canyon would be like a gondola ride to the top of Everest. These projects are deeply frustrating because all the developers have to do is get them built once - they can essentially fail as many times as they need to in order to get their project built. If you oppose this kind of project, you have to succeed in your efforts over and over again. If you fail once, the wild natur…

In high school, every Monday my geology teacher Mr. Weinle would show slides from a national park he visited. One of them -- I don't remember which -- had an asphalt sidewalk running through it. He said "I was mad as hell when I saw this. This is nature! You should protect it!" Then he switched slides to the next picture he took: it showed a man with leg braces walking through the park. He held up his fingers and sai…

Yeah, but we're not talking about a asphalt sidewalk here. We're talking about a massive gondola system. There are far less invasive ways to make the park more accessible. You can currently ride a mule down to the colorado river from the main park offices. If you're unable to take a mule, you can take a helicopter tour.

Re: Who Can Save the Grand Canyon?

#74

Post by ajays »

npongratz wrote: post #18
codyb wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A gondola ride to Everest would be awful. A quick ascent to that height would virtually guarantee some pretty awful side effects for most passengers. I certainly wouldn't want to be on it.

Millions of people ascend to the height of Everest's summit every day, extremely quickly. I imagine that such a purpose-built gondola would, like modern jets, have a pressurized cabin.

What's the point of the gondola, then, if you can't step out? If you just want to sit in a metal cabin and enjoy the view, you might as well go in a plane.

Re: Who Can Save the Grand Canyon?

#75

Post by timhon »

BCharlie wrote: post #66

"...who like the idea of enabling a large number of people to enjoy the great canyon’s very heart, a stunningly beautiful and remote site long inaccessible to the masses." Don't they realize that being remote and inaccessible is a big part of what makes it stunningly beautiful? The moment you arrive there with 10,000 other people, the place will no longer have what you came there to see.

I somewhat disagree. I rode around it on a motorcycle from the bay last year. It was my first time seeing it. I hate crowds just like everyone else, and there was a crap ton of buses with even more people there, but I have to say -- I didn't expect much... "big whoop, grand canyon..." but when I walked up to the side in person, the shear size and strange 3d illusion the sight put on my brain, I just couldn't comprehend. I was put in awe and literally couldn't turn away for 10 minutes... the people around hadn't detracted from that. But everyones different... the southside will always be crowded, if you want it to be remote, just plan a trip to the north side.

Re: Who Can Save the Grand Canyon?

#76

Post by gnaritas »

Fede_V wrote: post #26
sp332 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A gondola ride to the top of Everest would be awesome. Right now, 1.4% of the people who try to summit it die. That's ludicrous and totally indefensible. Anyway it's not as wild as it used to be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Everest#Everest_economy

That's because those people have no business being there. Those mountains are for genuine climbers that can earn their ascent there, not idiots with too much money and no respect for a mountain, who have sherpas basically push them to the top. I hate this ridiculously entitled attitude. If you aren't a great climber in fantastic physical shape, just don't go to Everest. I have the same kind of contempt for people who…

> That's because those people have no business being there.

Says who? Who are you to tell people where they have business being?

> Those mountains are for genuine climbers that can earn their ascent there, not idiots with too much money and no respect for a mountain, who have sherpas basically push them to the top.

Again, says who?

> I hate this ridiculously entitled attitude.

Like the one you're showing telling others what they should and shouldn't do?

Re: Who Can Save the Grand Canyon?

#77

Post by scotch_drinker »

I'm currently reading The Wilderness Warrior, the biography of Theodore Roosevelt who was instrumental not only in setting aside the Grand Canyon as a national park but also in saving millions of acres of forest through the West from wanton development. In that time, it was possible for a politician to have that kind of far reaching impact. Leaving aside whether it was the right or wrong thing to do, it's interesting that now we're likely subject to financial interests in whether this gets done and possibly a court decision. I doubt that any of our elected leaders could have much effect over what will eventually happen here. I think that's probably a failing of our political system.

Re: Who Can Save the Grand Canyon?

#78

Post by Retra »

gnaritas wrote: post #76
Fede_V wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because those people have no business being there. Those mountains are for genuine climbers that can earn their ascent there, not idiots with too much money and no respect for a mountain, who have sherpas basically push them to the top. I hate this ridiculously entitled attitude. If you aren't a great climber in fantastic physical shape, just don't go to Everest. I have the same kind of contempt for people who…

> That's because those people have no business being there. Says who? Who are you to tell people where they have business being? > Those mountains are for genuine climbers that can earn their ascent there, not idiots with too much money and no respect for a mountain, who have sherpas basically push them to the top. Again, says who? > I hate this ridiculously entitled attitude. Like the one you're showing telling othe…

Where are you going with this? People climb Mt Everest and die. Who says they shouldn't be there? You are free to be a rotten corpse, too, if you like.

Good decision-making requires good judgement. If you think judgement is unfair, then go ahead and make dumb decisions. Though the whole point of having a conversation is to find out how to make good decisions, not to defend bad ones in the name of some misplaced 'right to be stupid.'

>Says who?

Well, I do. If that's not good enough for you, then do something about it instead of pretending like there's some great authority I should be appealing to in the exercise of good reason.

Re: Who Can Save the Grand Canyon?

#79

Post by sanderjd »

timhon wrote: post #75
BCharlie wrote: post #66

"...who like the idea of enabling a large number of people to enjoy the great canyon’s very heart, a stunningly beautiful and remote site long inaccessible to the masses." Don't they realize that being remote and inaccessible is a big part of what makes it stunningly beautiful? The moment you arrive there with 10,000 other people, the place will no longer have what you came there to see.

I somewhat disagree. I rode around it on a motorcycle from the bay last year. It was my first time seeing it. I hate crowds just like everyone else, and there was a crap ton of buses with even more people there, but I have to say -- I didn't expect much... "big whoop, grand canyon..." but when I walked up to the side in person, the shear size and strange 3d illusion the sight put on my brain, I just couldn't comprehe…

The whole point of the article is that the inside will be like the south side. The north side only works because it is remote—if you set up a gondola from the south side to the north side, then your "just plan a trip to the north side" advice won't work. It's even worse to do that to the real remote area, which is the floor itself.

Re: Who Can Save the Grand Canyon?

#80

Post by sosborn »

anomicron wrote: post #69
shas3 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'western rim' is not inside the National Park [1]. The 'legit' Grand Canyon, the one covered by the National Park is very accessible (the rim)! [1] http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/skywalk.htm

SkyWalk is a tourist trap, expensive as hell. You are not even allowed cameras on the actual skywalk, so you have to buy their photos. The skywalk itself is an inslut to nature. I hope I knew a way of getting to the Canyon from Las Vegas without having to pay this robbers.

> inslut

Probably not intended, but this is a great word to use in this instance.

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