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Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

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Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#111
post #8

"Some researchers now say that as many as 1 person in 100 has some form of [atypical sex]." If the "simplistic" male/female binary explains >99% of observations, there does not seem to be a strong case for describing biological sex as a "spectrum"... I am 10,000% behind tolerance and acceptance for people of all genders and sexes and orientations, and it's very useful to understand how much biological complexity and…

Why defend a "highly accurate" approximation that also happens to be oppressive to the people who fall outside of it? So far as I can see learning to incorporate more nuance into our social understanding is the way these oppressive institutions are overcome, and how more diverse groups learn to coexist. Defending approximations like this runs dangerously close to committing the "naturalistic fallacy" of taking the way things are as the way they ought to be.

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#112
post #51

One of the predicted outcomes of the Singularity is the removal of sex as a characteristic. Note that race would be removed as well. A posthuman (of whatever form) would be free of both sex and race.

Oh boy, I will maybe get flagkilled, but you are wrong: race, sex, clothing, and just about anything easily observable is used by humans to precondition the Bayesian probability of the outcome of any social interaction. I see no reason to expect that AI will be any different in this matter, perhaps only more efficient.

Your username intrigues me (in the context of a discussion about sex determination). Are you by any chance a monotreme?

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#113
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think an acceptable level of error in approximation in legal and scientific terms would be one where the error is not likely to affect people negatively according to shared values (a shared value might be: people shouldn't get beaten to death or commit suicide--both problems among atypically sexed people). That number is difficult to come up with: it would have to look at impact analysis to see whether programs can…

In other words, your answer to the question is to say it's a problem when an approximation is confused for the reality and policy formed accordingly. Is that a correct assessment of your position?

> Is that a correct assessment of your position?

That's a reasonable approximation, yes. :P

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#114
post #112
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh boy, I will maybe get flagkilled, but you are wrong: race, sex, clothing, and just about anything easily observable is used by humans to precondition the Bayesian probability of the outcome of any social interaction. I see no reason to expect that AI will be any different in this matter, perhaps only more efficient.

Your username intrigues me (in the context of a discussion about sex determination). Are you by any chance a monotreme?

I'm a cyborg platypus, nice catch. Just two chromosomes is not enough to express all the variations of an algorithmic gender. And by the way, we also sometimes have Z's (but that's considered a racial thing, so no asking).

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism

I see that there is a history. But science, by its nature, is descriptive, not prescriptive. It describes how the world is, not how it ought to be. Pretend for a second that science discovered convincing/rigorous evidence that white people were less intelligent genetically than other races. That isn't justification for intolerance against white people. We get to choose our values as a society, independently of the re…

>Pretend for a second that science discovered convincing/rigorous evidence that white people were less intelligent genetically than other races. That isn't justification for intolerance against white people.

We would, however, expect white people to be underrepresented in positions that require high intelligence (medicine, STEM, politics, CEOs, etc) and understand that this underrepresentation would not be indicative of racial discrimination.

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#116
post #8

"Some researchers now say that as many as 1 person in 100 has some form of [atypical sex]." If the "simplistic" male/female binary explains >99% of observations, there does not seem to be a strong case for describing biological sex as a "spectrum"... I am 10,000% behind tolerance and acceptance for people of all genders and sexes and orientations, and it's very useful to understand how much biological complexity and…

> If the "simplistic" male/female binary explains >99% of observations, there does not seem to be a strong case for describing biological sex as a "spectrum"...

I'd suggest that it all comes down to how we're making those observations and what we're then doing with the classifications we've derived.

Why are we trying to describe the idea of biological sex? If it's for the sake of a scientific classification, then simplistic is a horrific idea. Biology by definition (in a modern world) is dealing with the small scale deviances and the nitty gritty. We're 99% rat, but the differences are somewhat remarkable.

We've been observing the wrong thing for thousands of years. Your assertion is almost correct; 99% of the time the _outcome_ of observation might be male or female, but it doesn't actually _explain_ anything. All it does is answer the question "does it have a penis"[1].

Which in 2015 has far less medical relevance than it did in centuries gone. "Well Mr. Smith, she is of the weaker species, this little touch of the vapours is to be expected, of course." is a diagnosis heard less and less. We're now increasingly diagnosing and categorizing conditions a genetic level, never-mind just what your second sex chromosome is. [2] From a technical point of view, it's already far more complicated than male/female. Simplifying science to that degree does it a disservice.

The big problem with binary though is the way it permeates through culture, language society and even thought.

Essentially, at birth, we clumsily label and categorise people based on their sex organs and worse, refuse to officially acknowledge the grey area. It's like asking someone with severe allergies if they want the shell fish or the peanuts. "Oh I'm sure they would both kill you, Sir[3], but you will be eating one for your entrée"

Put bluntly, I don't effing understand why everyone is so interested in what I have down my pants? You'd think it's entirely irrelevant except for some very specific circumstances, but instead we all have to publicly broadcast this binary allegiance all day every day. Everything. Pretty much every trivial form online makes me choose between "Mr", "Mrs", "Miss" or "Dr"[4] and usually as a mandatory field and yet you really don't need to know if I have a labia or not to be able to print my name and address and post me a parcel. It doesn't need to announce this on my bus pass or in nearly every english pronoun.

Through childhood I repeatedly went through conversations along the lines of "Which football team do you support?" I don't. I don't watch football. "That's fine, but which team do you support?"[5]. Not having an allegiance, even a lapsed one, is not an option.

By simplistically describing homosapien sex as binary it means anyone who doesn't conform is left out. It's not a legitimate option. Not viable, abnormal, mistakes, a freak of nature if you will. We're essentially saying that these people are inhuman and unnatural, which is obviously untrue.

The UK has allowed people to change their legal gender for over 10 years now[6], which legitimises the idea that external observation and internal state might not be linked. Simplifying that disparity to a binary state though, does a great disservice to the human condition. It seems odd that it's now legitimate not to identify as M||F but you've still got to identify as M||F.

"No", "Other" or "I don't know" should be a completely legitimate answer in response to sex or gender. It needs it's own category, it needs words to identify it and language to be able to describe it otherwise it's not a real thing, it's just anomalous.

And anyway, I'm disappointed; this is hacker news. Define it as either binary value or a boolean, but we should all be aware that as well as TRUE or FALSE, 0 or 1, variables can legitimately be undefined and it's something you have to be capable of handling.

apologies for the rambling answer.

--------------- [1] Admittedly a bit glib, but ignoring the last 120 years of science this is probably the most distinct observation we've been able to make of a live subject. Talking points might include testis and eunuchs, the ability to give birth and the difference between sex, gender and gender stereotyping... oh, and sea horses.

[2] http://www2.le.ac.uk/departments/genetics/vgec/highereducati... vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system

[3] Penis

[4] which until rather too recently has basically meant "penis", "already owned by a penis", "has no rights, available to be owned (warranty void if introduced to thinking)" or "even more respected penis".

[5] Feel free to make your own analogies; I recommend some of the misunderstandings between religion and atheism or the futility of voting for a political party you don't like as starting points.

[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Act_2004

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, there is a way to decide if something is scientifically better. All you have to show is that your construct is competitive within the ecosystem of constructs. You can weakly improve upon an existing model by adding tons of domain-specific complications, which is what should've happened. But instead of saying that there are two predominant sexes, along with many abnormal and discrete bins, they propose a "co…

> Actually, there is a way to decide if something is scientifically better. Not in a general sense, there isn't. "Better" can only be scientifically defined in terms of a utility function, a goal. If you're trying to conduct, copper is better than rubber, if you're trying to insulate, rubber is better than copper. If you're trying to provide adequate healthcare and social protection to people, then a lower margin of…

[deleted]

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given a free and unlimited choice, I'd happily bet the vast majority of this 1% would happily and wholeheartedly select either "male" or "female". Moreover they'd probably be quite offended if you suggested they didn't belong in those categories, even if the wonders of medical science revealed they had certain abnormalities they might not even have been aware of or otherwise might have attempted to surgically "correc…

> Given a free and unlimited choice, I'd happily bet the vast majority of this 1% would happily and wholeheartedly select either "male" or "female". True, but sex has medical and social implications that go beyond people's preferred terminology. You've brought up some of these concerns yourself. > Frankly, arguments against the gender binary are much better rooted in cultural phenomenon like South East Asian Katoeeys…

> I'm not sure what makes you think that nobody in Western countries defines themselves as a third gender.

I'm not sure what makes you think I think that. But it's certainly considerably rarer.

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#119
fwiw, ive never met a DSD human creature in my life. It'll be amazing if I ever will! I love this last sentence: "In other words, if you want to know whether someone is male or female, it may be best just to ask". LOL And this is a serious science article in the most prestigious general science journal.

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#120
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it's a pointless argument to make when your 1% margin of error includes 70 million people. You say that like it's some huge number. 70 million or not, it's still 1%. Numbers get their significance relatively, not in themselves.

> You say that like it's some huge number. 70 million or not, it's still 1%. Numbers get their significance relatively, not in themselves. Relative to what? I can't believe I'm having this conversation. 70 million people is more than the number of people killed in both world wars. 70 million people is more than the population of the UK or Canada. Are you claiming that the world wars caused negligible deaths, or that…

>Relative to what? I can't believe I'm having this conversation.

Relative to the total population. Whether it's Canada, the US, France, or the Whole World you're taking into account, it's still 1% of it.

>You can't just say 1% is a negligible amount without context.

Probably you missed TFA and the whole conversation thread you're answering to?

The context was if only 1% of the population doing them is enough to call sexual preferences "a spectrum" (with regard to those "atypical sexual practices"). Something divided in 99% and 1% is not a "spectrum" by any stretch of the imagination. In fact there's a word for that 1%, outliers.

>1% blood alcohol will probably kill you, 1% error on your taxes, if intentional, is enough to put you in jail, 1% error in floating point arithmetic is the difference between a missile that hits its target and a missile that lands in a civilian residence. But numbers get their significance relatively, right?

Of course. 1% blood alcohol gets its significance not in what it is ("1% oh, so much") but RELATIVE to the amount that's OK for a human to stand.

1% error in missile calculations gets its significance RELATIVE to the target area it has to hit and the acceptable margin of error.

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