Live data from Hacker News

EFF to Supreme Court: The Fourth Amendment Covers DNA Collection

eff.org

21–30 of 71 posts

Re: EFF to Supreme Court: The Fourth Amendment Covers DNA Collection

#21
post #17
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are poor arguments.

Please explain why these are poor arguments to rebut the claim, The only way this has any effect on anyone's lives is if it is used to catch you for a crime you committed.

A warrant makes little difference in these cases, so why bring them up?

Re: EFF to Supreme Court: The Fourth Amendment Covers DNA Collection

#22
post #12
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea the EFF doesn't really have a very compelling argument here. I'm not even sure what the downside is in a policy sense. The only way this has any effect on anyone's lives is if it is used to catch you for a crime you committed.

Not so fast. Often DNA can identify that you are likely related to someone who committed a crime. This can lead to interesting results in cases where the relationship is not known. For example consider the case where a couple with fertility problems used a sperm donor. The child is never told that this happened. Then police identify that the crime was likely committed by someone who shares 1/4 of their DNA with the c…

Clearly there is some potential effect, so yea you are right. But this is pretty tenuous, rare, and this sort of risk comes with any police investigation.

If the police see a red BMW leave a scene, it might accidentally cause a person with a red BMW to be falsely investigated.

Human eyewitness evidence is even worse.

So yea, while there is some effect, it is no more than what we already accept.

Re: EFF to Supreme Court: The Fourth Amendment Covers DNA Collection

#23

Although I agree with the EFF, I question the legal argument, and whether or not the case will be in their favor. (1) Although DNA should be protected in the sense the government cannot take it from you, without a warrant (or claims your a terrorist). It's difficult to argue that if some hair falls off my head in public, should it not be considered "fair game"? Picking up papers out of the trash has always been fair…

The difference between shedding of hair and skin and throwing away paper is a question of intention and ability. I could choose to take more care with the paper, but avoiding shedding any DNA is basically impossible. Compare it with new x-ray/radar/EM techniques police can use to eavesdrop from miles away or even view you through walls, or read what you're typing or viewing on your various screens--there's basically no way to avoid transmitting such information into the world. Should police be able to gather it without going to a judge?

Re: EFF to Supreme Court: The Fourth Amendment Covers DNA Collection

#24

Although I agree with the EFF, I question the legal argument, and whether or not the case will be in their favor. (1) Although DNA should be protected in the sense the government cannot take it from you, without a warrant (or claims your a terrorist). It's difficult to argue that if some hair falls off my head in public, should it not be considered "fair game"? Picking up papers out of the trash has always been fair…

Should it be fair game for me to download a movie from "some site I found it on", because I didn't take it from the studio itself?

If copyright works through "authorization", I don't see why we should accept it as natural and normal for authorities to use our fingerprints, hair, or even sperm without our permission. Speaking of the last one, I don't think it's legal for a woman to impregnate herself with a man's sperm by taking it from a used condom and without his knowledge?

Re: EFF to Supreme Court: The Fourth Amendment Covers DNA Collection

#25
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how this would be different from lifting fingerprints from a discarded cup. Does that happen in real life or is that just a movie/tv thing?

The difference is that lifting fingerprints can only tie you to a crime scene. In this case the DNA evidence tied him to the actual crime.

Another difference between lifting fingerprints and lifting DNA is that the genetic markings can be studied to give further insight into the person - for example medical, removing more of their privacy, which without probable cause, is in breach of the 4th amendment.

A fingerprint however, if found in public and considered fair game tells you one thing - that you were there, or someone reasonably competent in lifting and transferring fingerprints has a copy of your fingerprint and is attempting to put you in the spotlight. It doesn't tell the discoverer of your print anything further about you.

Re: EFF to Supreme Court: The Fourth Amendment Covers DNA Collection

#27

Although I agree with the EFF, I question the legal argument, and whether or not the case will be in their favor. (1) Although DNA should be protected in the sense the government cannot take it from you, without a warrant (or claims your a terrorist). It's difficult to argue that if some hair falls off my head in public, should it not be considered "fair game"? Picking up papers out of the trash has always been fair…

>so why should the hair be different?

Because it is unreasonable to avoid. A reasonable person who wants to maintain privacy has the ability to avoid throwing things they don't want to be found out. A reasonable person who wants to maintain privacy must be unreasonable in order to prevent his or her DNA from being all over the place.

IANAL, but I feel like the 4th amendment needs to be interpreted in light of the difficulty of obtaining private information on a person at the time, and the ease of obtaining it now. At the time, the 4th amendment pretty much prevented law enforcement from getting any information on you that you didn't broadcast (absent a warrant). I think it is reasonable to use that standard.

> (2) Unreasonable search and seizure is relative...invading a persons time/space/property/anything.

But it is invading a persons privacy. Their DNA contains information that is as private to them as what they do in their home with the blinds drawn.

Re: EFF to Supreme Court: The Fourth Amendment Covers DNA Collection

#28

Although I agree with the EFF, I question the legal argument, and whether or not the case will be in their favor. (1) Although DNA should be protected in the sense the government cannot take it from you, without a warrant (or claims your a terrorist). It's difficult to argue that if some hair falls off my head in public, should it not be considered "fair game"? Picking up papers out of the trash has always been fair…

[deleted]

Re: EFF to Supreme Court: The Fourth Amendment Covers DNA Collection

#29
post #21
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please explain why these are poor arguments to rebut the claim, The only way this has any effect on anyone's lives is if it is used to catch you for a crime you committed.

A warrant makes little difference in these cases, so why bring them up?

The point of a warrant is that a judge has decided that the needs of law enforcement override the right to privacy in this case. The point of the lawsuit is to set a precedent saying that the police cannot simply collect and analyze DNA without warrants.

Therefore if there is a demonstrable privacy issue to DNA collection and analysis, then requiring warrants is the accepted way in our legal system to balance the needs of law enforcement against people's right to privacy.

Re: EFF to Supreme Court: The Fourth Amendment Covers DNA Collection

#30

Other considerations aside, DNA analysis is so easy and getting so cheap, its inevitable it will be used in every facet of our lives. So learn to live with it. Or become a luddite hiding in a cave.

Even though you're at the bottom of the comments, I'm inclined to agree. In case you're interested, here's an discussion of how this trend might at least be amenable to creating unique cryptographic IDs without the need for central governance.

https://github.com/MrChrisJ/World-Citizenship/issues/22#issu...

Post reply on HN