Live data from Hacker News

Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

nature.com

51–60 of 132 posts

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#51

One of the predicted outcomes of the Singularity is the removal of sex as a characteristic. Note that race would be removed as well. A posthuman (of whatever form) would be free of both sex and race.

Oh boy, I will maybe get flagkilled, but you are wrong: race, sex, clothing, and just about anything easily observable is used by humans to precondition the Bayesian probability of the outcome of any social interaction. I see no reason to expect that AI will be any different in this matter, perhaps only more efficient.

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#52
post #34

The 'two-sexes approximation' is boolean, not binary. Boolean involves two possible values; binary involves an infinite number of possible values, represented in base-2.[1][2] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary note: this is a re-post of a comment made on a child of the OP.

if we are considering wiki* sources legitimate, then let's visit the wiktionary page for "binary" that the Wikipedia page for "Binary" links to: [1]. The first definition is:

    Being in a state of one of two mutually exclusive conditions such as on or off, true or false, molten or frozen, presence or absence of a signal
So, the "two-sexes approximation" is binary :)

1: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/binary

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#53
post #34

The 'two-sexes approximation' is boolean, not binary. Boolean involves two possible values; binary involves an infinite number of possible values, represented in base-2.[1][2] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary note: this is a re-post of a comment made on a child of the OP.

You are contradicted by the very Wikipedia article you posted: "Binary means composed of two pieces or two parts" You look it up in any dictionary and a similar definition will be given, which in the context of the article is a completely correct usage. Binary as a word predates computer science by quite a bit ...

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#54
post #8

"Some researchers now say that as many as 1 person in 100 has some form of [atypical sex]." If the "simplistic" male/female binary explains >99% of observations, there does not seem to be a strong case for describing biological sex as a "spectrum"... I am 10,000% behind tolerance and acceptance for people of all genders and sexes and orientations, and it's very useful to understand how much biological complexity and…

1% of the world's 7 billion people[1] is 70 million people. That's a little less than the population of Congo, a little more than the population of France. [2] I'll admit that what you're willing to call a "highly accurate approximation" is pretty arbitrary. There are some systems where I would call an approximation with a 1% margin of error a highly accurate approximation. But it's a pointless argument to make when…

I would still take issue with the usage of spectrum. A spectrum is a scale with escalating/deescalating and predictable variation. As you go "up" and "down" the spectrum, I don't think you can say how you're supposed to interpret that.

In my opinion, we should be supporting or phasing out concepts depending on its usefulness as a predictive instrument. I don't think the "spectrum" lens offers any power over "two major sexes with many small discrete bins". But the spectrum view does seem forced, as if the intended effect is a more inclusive "we". Better would be to say that there are two major sexes, as well as some rather rare cases (MOST inclusive definition ~1%). They each belong in their discrete bins as domain-specific studies.

I also think you are letting your concern for humanity cloud your constructs. You seem to be very concerned about exclusion from normal. 70 million sounds like a big number if you were living in Europe at the time of the Bubonic plague. But this is the same problem with large numbers when we hear about state budgets. We hear titanic numbers, but it's hard to grasp how big or small it really is. How big is $100 billion to the state? Medium? A lot? A little? What if I said, hypothetically, that it was marginally less than 1% of the state budget?

Are you going to say to me, "Well, think about how even Bill Gates doesn't have $100 billion. Think about how much that would mean to you." ? If I brought it down to an intimate level, I would never be able to talk about huge numbers because it hits my intuition too hard.

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#55
post #2

This is a fascinating article, and stands on its own merits. Go read it. The point I'd like to make though is that sometimes we use science to justify intolerance, and time and again the science has caught up with what people have reported as their own life experience.

>sometimes we use science to justify intolerance, and time and again the science has caught up with what people have reported as their own life experience. Do you have any examples of this?

bennetfeely in a cousin post has a good Wikipedia link on it. At different times in history racism has been justified by religious and (then current) scientific thinking on biology and (possibly) evolution. It's been used to justify slavery and genocide or the general subjugation of nations of people.

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#56
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1% of the world's 7 billion people[1] is 70 million people. That's a little less than the population of Congo, a little more than the population of France. [2] I'll admit that what you're willing to call a "highly accurate approximation" is pretty arbitrary. There are some systems where I would call an approximation with a 1% margin of error a highly accurate approximation. But it's a pointless argument to make when…

> But it's a pointless argument to make when your 1% margin of error includes 70 million people. You say that like it's some huge number. 70 million or not, it's still 1%. Numbers get their significance relatively, not in themselves.

Nice try, Stalin.

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#57
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1% of the world's 7 billion people[1] is 70 million people. That's a little less than the population of Congo, a little more than the population of France. [2] I'll admit that what you're willing to call a "highly accurate approximation" is pretty arbitrary. There are some systems where I would call an approximation with a 1% margin of error a highly accurate approximation. But it's a pointless argument to make when…

> But it's a pointless argument to make when your 1% margin of error includes 70 million people. You say that like it's some huge number. 70 million or not, it's still 1%. Numbers get their significance relatively, not in themselves.

> You say that like it's some huge number. 70 million or not, it's still 1%. Numbers get their significance relatively, not in themselves.

Relative to what? I can't believe I'm having this conversation.

70 million people is more than the number of people killed in both world wars. 70 million people is more than the population of the UK or Canada. Are you claiming that the world wars caused negligible deaths, or that the populations of the UK or Canada are negligible?

You can't just say 1% is a negligible amount without context. Whether 1% is a negligible margin of error is entirely dependent on context. 1% blood alcohol will probably kill you, 1% error on your taxes, if intentional, is enough to put you in jail, 1% error in floating point arithmetic is the difference between a missile that hits its target and a missile that lands in a civilian residence. But numbers get their significance relatively, right?

70 million people is a lot of people.

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#59
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1% of the world's 7 billion people[1] is 70 million people. That's a little less than the population of Congo, a little more than the population of France. [2] I'll admit that what you're willing to call a "highly accurate approximation" is pretty arbitrary. There are some systems where I would call an approximation with a 1% margin of error a highly accurate approximation. But it's a pointless argument to make when…

> But it's a pointless argument to make when your 1% margin of error includes 70 million people. You say that like it's some huge number. 70 million or not, it's still 1%. Numbers get their significance relatively, not in themselves.

Numbers are perfectly significant in being themselves large. 70 million is a great market for a set of niche clothing lines, self-help books, sex toys, etc. It's just not enough of a market for governments to spend an extraordinary amount of effort on dealing with the specifics. This is a long-tail number, too; 'Male', 'Female', and 'Other' probably makes sense if you expect 1% of respondents to select other. However, 1% don't select other; They get offended that you don't have Facebook's 72-pronoun list, and even if you do, that doesn't cover their particular favorite.

Re: Sex redefined: the idea of two sexes is simplistic

#60
post #8

"Some researchers now say that as many as 1 person in 100 has some form of [atypical sex]." If the "simplistic" male/female binary explains >99% of observations, there does not seem to be a strong case for describing biological sex as a "spectrum"... I am 10,000% behind tolerance and acceptance for people of all genders and sexes and orientations, and it's very useful to understand how much biological complexity and…

A strong case can be made because the line is extremely blurry and there can be severe consequences for forcing a category on people that doesn't fit.

Sex and gender are shoved in people's faces practically every waking moment which means this "highly accurate approximation" breaks down billions of times a day with consequences ranging from discrimination and depression to sterilization and death.

How certain are you that you or some close doesn't fall outside the binary?

Post reply on HN