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blog.samaltman.com

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Re: China

#311
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about violence at all. The goal of a state is in fact to have a monopoly on violence. I'm not taking sides at all, just pointing out the history of the past couple hundred years. China is like any other state, in fact it was literally the first instance of the Modern State that had centralized authoritative systems of governance that provided various facilities throughout the Empire, mandated by the e…

But you hit on a very interesting point, but don't follow it through to conclusion: > What the West was able to do is exploit that technology to create a new economic system, ... > Furthermore it's an assumption to think that conflict creation is inherent in human beings, because it's really not, and there are many instances of various government being satisfied in their own domains. China, and India being an example…

Of course, and so the same will happen today. Nothing has changed. There are no winners, or losers, just the eternal game.

I'm not saying these people were "better", or "worse" these were people, and so the coming chaos will reflect their humanity. The West shouldn't be afraid.

Re: China

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is textbook confirmation bias. You're ignoring the writings of every Chinese philosopher valuing hard work, the tendency for Chinese schools to value rote memorization--a very work-intensive activity--over creativity, the fact that American railroads were basically built by the Chinese, and the fact that you're likely reading this on a device made by hard-working Chinese hands. Your willingness to see East Asian…

Please don't project your confirmation bias onto me. How you got that from one comment is more than just a bit absurd, especially considering I said most, not all, so there are definite outliers as you mentioned. I also specifically said eastern cultures, which are not limited to Chinese, and the example I gave is in fact a Panchatantra fable, making it Indian in origin, not Chinese. But don't let that stop you from…

This is not my alt account. I'm just not that active. These are not outliers, you are simply incorrect. If you believe your assertions to be anything but assumptions and blase accusations of entire cultures, I'd be happy to read your published work on the matter.

Re: China

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conflict creation for profit is something inherent to humans, not the West alone. We are predators, we eat bunnies, and because bunnies don't kill us in return, we think that it is ok. For example, Spanish conquered South and Central America, but the people that lived there were not conflict free. In fact, if you compare Spanish with Mayans that will extract the heart out of their alive enemies, or their skin, Spanis…

I'm not talking about violence at all. The goal of a state is in fact to have a monopoly on violence. I'm not taking sides at all, just pointing out the history of the past couple hundred years. China is like any other state, in fact it was literally the first instance of the Modern State that had centralized authoritative systems of governance that provided various facilities throughout the Empire, mandated by the e…

> This exporting of goods is what drove the British, and the Imperial powers in general, and what produced a wealthy economy in those countries.

Deirdre N. McCloskey in her book 'Bourgeois Dignity: Why Economics Can't Explain the Modern World' does a pretty good job of explaining that this imperial trade (amongst other factors) doesn't do enough to explain why The West became wealthy.

To quote McCloskey: "What's wrong with such images? This: the world did not change by piling up money or capital. It changed by getting smarter about steam engines and wiser about accepting the outcome of innovation."

If imperialist trade is what caused British wealth to increase by a factor of sixteen or more since the 16th or 17th century, why didn't countless other states become modern-day wealthy during countless other imperialist expansions?

Nor did the Industrial Revolution do it. The printing press was invented in China (1041) some 400 years before Gutenberg (1450) caught on to the idea, and the Industrial Revolution didn't happen for another 300 year after that!

McCloskey's suggestion is that Bourgeois Dignity is what caused the change. That society came to dignify innovation. That average Jane Citizen came to be able to invent and bring to market innovation. Not only that, we now glorify the innovator, rather than prosecute them.

So it wasn't British imperialism that made Britain rich. Free trade does more to cause the wealth of nations than imperialism ever could. But free trade isn't enough either.

McCloskey argues it isn't Capitalism that is so important to modern wealth, because capitalism -the accumulation of capital- has been a thing since people have been gathering seeds.

As Sam says in his article it is Innovationism that made the modern world so extremely wealthy. That we are prepared to iterate so rapidly, ever more rapidly, and dignify those who do the innovating.

So I disagree that the imperial redistribution of wealth is what has caused 'those regions' to be affected to this day. As India embraced Innovationism -in manufacture, call centres, software development- we have watched it become increasingly more wealthy.

Re: China

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about violence at all. The goal of a state is in fact to have a monopoly on violence. I'm not taking sides at all, just pointing out the history of the past couple hundred years. China is like any other state, in fact it was literally the first instance of the Modern State that had centralized authoritative systems of governance that provided various facilities throughout the Empire, mandated by the e…

> This exporting of goods is what drove the British, and the Imperial powers in general, and what produced a wealthy economy in those countries. Deirdre N. McCloskey in her book 'Bourgeois Dignity: Why Economics Can't Explain the Modern World' does a pretty good job of explaining that this imperial trade (amongst other factors) doesn't do enough to explain why The West became wealthy. To quote McCloskey: "What's wron…

That is the old Imperial myth, that's as old as Imperialism itself. It's such a condescending perspective, as the countries from all around the world were just as inventive, and innovative with their technologies. What happened was very subtle. It was simply the fact that the already rich countries had no reason to expand, while European societies had every reason to expand, as their society was in complete tatters compared to Asia. The rise of European society wasn't just accepting innovation, while others declined innovation, no. Europeans just had more of an incentive to use that innovation for personal gains, while societies in Asia had every incentive to use that innovation for inner stability, and stay course for a non-expansionistic policy. I mean we have Europeans using gunpowder to blow each other up, while China used it for public entertainment, pacifying them, by utilizing it for fireworks. Not mention the Indians were better equipped with firearms compared to the Europeans. I mean India invented rockets at the very time the Imperial powers came in, so that right there throws out the idea that other societies were less inventive, or that invention somehow leads to wealth. They were simply more hesitant to utilize that invention to expand, as inner stability was more valuable to them.

Really I don't know how people can justify that idea. Steam engines don't give you wealth. Using the steam engines for the export of resources does. It was only with the railways that Imperial powers were able to export wealth from India. Not to mention the deliberate sabotage from within the country, by playing the political game very intelligently (the same thing happened in South America, and Africa). How can you ignore the deliberate deindustrialization of the India under that Raj? I mean you have state sponsored brutality such as chopping off the thumps of basket weavers, and making steel production illegal so that they can't practice their trade. Imperialism actively sought to close off, tax out, or straight make local industries illegal, thereby increasing wealth as the Imperial powers were able to sell more readily. The same thing happened with China, albeit indirectly, by deliberate sabotage.

How can you ignore the very idea of Nations, and Nationhood being a very corrosive force that has put ruthless competition at the basis of governance, on a scale never before seen?

Innovativeness does not even begin to cut it. I mean if you're going to argue on culture, then you're putting up a silly argument which says almost nothing, but definitely reiterate Europe's superiority in "culture", which is not a new argument. It's the same old argument that's been used by imperial powers to justify their ruthless conquest since the beginning. It isn't just inventiveness that made Imperial powers more powerful, but a shift in perspective that allowed them to both create the state, and utilize authoritative power for economic gains, coupling that with technology that allowed for global reach.

Just as European society was going through what China had gone through 2000 years ago, that being complete inner turmoil resulting in total war producing a centralized state. Just then it was blessed with unprecedented technological capabilities (that was in fact imported from all across the world), coupling that with the ideological stance which burgeoned due to constant conflict within European society. Ok. So here we have that "cultural" advantage, in that European society was just more ruthless than any other country in the world, not just more inventive. Invention means nothing, and does not produce wealth, it's the use of that invention that matters, and admittedly the Imperial powers did use invention to its fullest capabilities.

Asia in general was in a period of decline at that point, a slowing down, because we don't see the activity of Chinese, and Indian merchants in this period we instead see a recession, and any economist would tell you that this is completely normal for a society.

What wasn't normal for these societies, nor was expected, nor seen ever before in history, was an external force, that too coming from across the globe, that actively had the ability to exploit that recession. That force was able to exploit that recession in a way that allowed for the export of wealth by employing global technologies, and introducing a new set of state sponsored ideologies (soft power).

Re: China

#315

Speaking from personal experience, the atmosphere in the U.S. is a lot better than in China, in terms of the recognition of importance and respect to science and technology fields as well as scientists and engineers. I feel an implicit discrimination towards engineers in Chinese culture in the sense that "you are regarded successful if you hold a management position and live a (perceived) decent lifestyle, but not if…

All of that also seems true of the US. Everyone wants a "leadership" role, either in government or in the private sector as CEOs or management in general, and even schools nurture students into "leadership" more than "science". Even in Silicon Valley, engineers and scientists don't enjoy the highest status (founders are above them, and VCs above that). Arguably, the only place in the US where scientists are on the to…

Well, not really. Then you have all the funding agencies above them.

Re: China

#316
post #43

I lived in Shanghai and worked at a startup for a year after college. The startup expat and startup local communities are surprisingly developed. There are a lot of co-working spaces, hacker spaces, and start up events. For anyone interested in China, you can live in Shanghai without speaking Mandarin. Western training in programing, design and product is highly valued. Salary offerings are lower by a factor of 10. R…

They've also started to block Gmail and seriously block most VPNs. A good number of expats are looking into leaving recently because of the recent restrictions.

Delayed response--

That was always the case. Even when I got there, there were "expats looking to leave". Because theres such a heavy influx of people coming in, it doesnt matter.

Re: China

#317

I lived in Shanghai and worked at a startup for a year after college. The startup expat and startup local communities are surprisingly developed. There are a lot of co-working spaces, hacker spaces, and start up events. For anyone interested in China, you can live in Shanghai without speaking Mandarin. Western training in programing, design and product is highly valued. Salary offerings are lower by a factor of 10. R…

"Salary offerings are lower by a factor of 10", compared to where? A decent freshly graduated developer in Shanghai can easily make 1.5-2k USD a month. Where you do get 10 times more than that?

A recently graduated developer in NY or SF can make 110-160k a year.
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