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A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

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Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#61
post #22

First of all, calling a group of guys a sausage fest is reverse sexism. If I called a classroom full of girls a barbie play-date, or a tea party, or a "fashion" class - regardless of the real reason for their gathering, people would be outraged - and rightfully so. None of those things are true and it's disrespectful to say something like that. Second, the guy who said "well I should have applied for that" might have…

Side note: My relative who works in HR has told me time and again, the appropriate way to say "you look nice" to a co-worker in a professional setting is to not say it. In that setting, beyond grossly inappropriate work attire (at which point all comments should go directly to HR and not the employee), there is no need to make a subjective-comment on someone's appearance, you're there to work.

(edit) grammar

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#62
post #28
post #22

First of all, calling a group of guys a sausage fest is reverse sexism. If I called a classroom full of girls a barbie play-date, or a tea party, or a "fashion" class - regardless of the real reason for their gathering, people would be outraged - and rightfully so. None of those things are true and it's disrespectful to say something like that. Second, the guy who said "well I should have applied for that" might have…

I guess it wouldn't be a discussion about sexism on HN without someone popping up to invalidate the woman's experiences.

I don't really read it as "invalidating" so much as pointing out the possibility of misattribution.

A concrete example: my car broke down. It's a Ford, that's blue, and is a two door, and is rear wheel drive. Is the right conclusion that it broke because it's a Ford and all Fords are pieces of crap?

Are there possible causes? Missed maintenance, a lemon, driving it too hard, etc. I realize that it's crazy to suggest that it broke down because it's blue or because it's a two-door because we happen to know the underlying mechanics here. But if the car was a black-box, those could potentially be causes too.

Just because a woman thinks that she's been discriminated against for being a woman doesn't make it so. That doesn't mean that her experiences are wrong, nor does it make whatever she endured somehow pleasant. And I'm sure that there's plenty of sexism out there too, I'm not trying to suggest that everything is great and there are no problems.

Sexism is an easy explanation in many cases, but that doesn't NECESSARILY mean it's the correct one. It's kind-of like the old XKCD comic: http://xkcd.com/552/

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#63

I do sometimes wonder what's added by focusing on sexism in tech, in particular, and suggesting it's uniquely a problem with tech. I can believe it's worse here on average than some other comfortable professional jobs, but seriously, sexism is everywhere and if we want to reduce it, it makes more sense to me to focus on the problem itself in full generality rather than an environment it's found in. Unless you want to…

It's useful to point it out in tech because in tech, we believe that we operate with the purity of egalitarianism.

But real life is more complicated and messy.

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#64
post #36
post #12

Well she writes like a junior because she is. But the main points she makes - subtle sexism regarding capability in the face of equivalent effort - are certainly observable and do ring true. When I see articles like this (and the issue of sexism in computing does pop up quite often) I usually agree. It is there. But what can be done? I myself have been a disgusting example of a male engineer at times. And as much as…

You've successfully completed steps 1 and 2: 1. Acknowledge there is a real problem. 2. Acknowledge you are part of the problem. Now, on to steps 3-n! 3. Don't be discouraged, accept that there are things you can do to help! This is good , you're about to become a more valuable member of society. 4. Accept that you need to put in some effort. Not much, don't worry. Most of it is shutting up. 5. Read what women write…

>Accept that you need to put in some effort. Not much, don't worry. Most of it is shutting up.

Disgusting.

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#65
post #24
post #12

Well she writes like a junior because she is. But the main points she makes - subtle sexism regarding capability in the face of equivalent effort - are certainly observable and do ring true. When I see articles like this (and the issue of sexism in computing does pop up quite often) I usually agree. It is there. But what can be done? I myself have been a disgusting example of a male engineer at times. And as much as…

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#66
post #36
post #12

Well she writes like a junior because she is. But the main points she makes - subtle sexism regarding capability in the face of equivalent effort - are certainly observable and do ring true. When I see articles like this (and the issue of sexism in computing does pop up quite often) I usually agree. It is there. But what can be done? I myself have been a disgusting example of a male engineer at times. And as much as…

You've successfully completed steps 1 and 2: 1. Acknowledge there is a real problem. 2. Acknowledge you are part of the problem. Now, on to steps 3-n! 3. Don't be discouraged, accept that there are things you can do to help! This is good , you're about to become a more valuable member of society. 4. Accept that you need to put in some effort. Not much, don't worry. Most of it is shutting up. 5. Read what women write…

You seem certain that that you know exactly what the problem is, and exactly how to solve it, down to a list of steps. You even seem certain that a stranger on the Internet is part of the problem. Well, give me a break -- that's really presumptuous and condescending. Listening to the aggrieved seems like a good idea, but there's no guarantee that they have the answers.

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#67
post #64
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've successfully completed steps 1 and 2: 1. Acknowledge there is a real problem. 2. Acknowledge you are part of the problem. Now, on to steps 3-n! 3. Don't be discouraged, accept that there are things you can do to help! This is good , you're about to become a more valuable member of society. 4. Accept that you need to put in some effort. Not much, don't worry. Most of it is shutting up. 5. Read what women write…

>Accept that you need to put in some effort. Not much, don't worry. Most of it is shutting up. Disgusting.

[deleted]

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#68
post #22

First of all, calling a group of guys a sausage fest is reverse sexism. If I called a classroom full of girls a barbie play-date, or a tea party, or a "fashion" class - regardless of the real reason for their gathering, people would be outraged - and rightfully so. None of those things are true and it's disrespectful to say something like that. Second, the guy who said "well I should have applied for that" might have…

Side note: My relative who works in HR has told me time and again, the appropriate way to say "you look nice" to a co-worker in a professional setting is to not say it . In that setting, beyond grossly inappropriate work attire (at which point all comments should go directly to HR and not the employee), there is no need to make a subjective-comment on someone's appearance, you're there to work. (edit) grammar

I agree with this. Nobody should be judged based on how they look. If you compliment someone and don't compliment others, it could be interpreted the wrong way. If you compliment someone and it's misinterpreted, then it could also cause issues. Just don't judge people based on superficial things.

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#69
I am a female developer about 6 years older than the author. I absolutely love the end of this article:

> Slowly but steadily, I am learning to see my dresses and high­-pitched voice not as hurdles to my success, but as symbols of the perspective I bring to the table.

This conclusion is fantastic and shows a sense of confidence and maturity that I think all professionals of all genders need to project.

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#70
post #17

[deleted]

That sounds like a weird off-hand complaint until you realize that she's not talking about once or twice -- she's talking about "making it a point" to do so. Even once or twice is perilous territory, unless it's in a particular context (she brings up the subject in conversation, for instance).

That is, he was attracted to her, and wanted to let her know it. This comes up a lot when people believe that anything said with "positive intent" to women is actually positive. A lot of geeks don't get this. Women aren't stupid -- they recognize the compliment for what it is. Whenever you feel like you need to say something to a woman because your genitals throb -- think better of it.

I've made this mistake -- it was subtle, not egregious (like the guy above), but I did. Nothing happened, and maybe she never noticed, but in retrospect, it's one of the those embarrassing things you do in life you get to re-live in idle moments. Don't let this happen to you. :-)

It's important to understand that sexuality comes up everywhere. In our work cultures, we generally try to suppress it because even in an office with all men, it can become a distraction.

With women in the workspace, it's much worse. Our society trains us to think of women as sexual objects who must always prioritize a man's perspective. Even if you are "enlightened", it's easy to slip up if you're too casual about it. When you want to offer a compliment on someone's appearance (in a nominally non-sexual context), you need to understand where it is coming from -- and do not lie to yourself. It's okay to be sexually attracted to someone in the workplace (that's humanity), but not ok to impose your desires on someone else without their consent.

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