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Debian developer prompted to revisit FreeBSD after 20 years

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Re: Debian developer prompted to revisit FreeBSD after 20 years

#41
post #31

That's a good overall article - I've been switching back and forth between FreeBSD and Debian for several years now, and I never spend more than a couple of month without using one of them. The one thing that surprised me was his take on FreeBSD's package management system, pkg. PKG is relatively new, having been released in late summer 2012. Prior to that, FreeBSD relied on the ports collection, which was (is) a vas…

I really like that FreeBSD has binary package management. I started my journey into Unix almost 10 years ago with FreeBSD Unleashed.

I am considering writing a comparison command-to-command of apt-get vs. pkg, and differences in behavior.

* Are packages from the FreeBSD repos pinned the same way Ubuntu packages are, relase to release? Are there multiple repos (comparable to universe/multiverse, updates/backports)?

  * apt-get update && apt-get upgrade
  * apt-get --no-install-recommends install 
  * apt-get purge; apt-get autoclean;
  * apt-cache showpkg 
  * apt-cache search 
  * dpkg-reconfigure (for post-install scripts)
And so on. If I knew exactly how FreeBSD's pkg system worked related to apt-get, I'd be more comfortable going there full time. I'm also interested in how it integrates with Jails, should I just look in the Handbook for more info, or do you have a blog I should read on it?

Re: Debian developer prompted to revisit FreeBSD after 20 years

#42
Those who switch operating systems out of ideological disillusionment are liable to end up as disillusioned again as those who switch religions out of religious disillusionment. You may think the new one is more pure, but it's really just more novel to you. The old timers have been around for their own iterations of in-fighting and may be happy to see fresh blood but probably won't be happy to see rehashing of hardened partisan battles.

Linux hasn't lost its way, it has evolved over the past 20+ years as UNIX has evolved over the past 40+ years. So have the BSDs--all of them.

Re: Debian developer prompted to revisit FreeBSD after 20 years

#43
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing like Dropbox -- that's not a bug, it's a feature. What a horribly arrogant and conceited thing to say.

It's also wrong. FreeBSD supports the best there is: Tarsnap.

I use Tarsnap and Dropbox. They aren't the same at all:

* You run Tarsnap whenever you want to push changes; Dropbox automatically pushes changes.

* Tarsnap is for 'real' computers only; Dropbox runs on my phone (which is very useful for photos, among other things).

* Tarsnap is billed by usage (at a very small amount); Dropbox has a free tier.

* Tarsnap doesn't have a natural sharing usecase; Dropbox does.

* Fundamentally, Tarsnap is backup, and Dropbox is sync. They are two different things. Not to mention that Tarsnap is also supported just fine on Linux.

Re: Debian developer prompted to revisit FreeBSD after 20 years

#44
post #31

That's a good overall article - I've been switching back and forth between FreeBSD and Debian for several years now, and I never spend more than a couple of month without using one of them. The one thing that surprised me was his take on FreeBSD's package management system, pkg. PKG is relatively new, having been released in late summer 2012. Prior to that, FreeBSD relied on the ports collection, which was (is) a vas…

pkgng + poudriere = my sysadmin sweet spot. I can customize package builds to my heart's content while continuing to use the FreeBSD package repositories (if I want). It'd be nice if pkgng would build stuff from the ports tree if necessary, like MacPorts does, but frankly pkgng is good enough as is. If I need more than FreeBSD's binary package set, I'm comfortable with building directly from ports (in case of one-offs) or expanding my Poudriere deployment. Compared to pkg_install/portupgrade/portmaster, pkgng is awesome---flawless binary upgrades, even from my custom package repository. Compared to YUM/APT, pkgng is still awesome---setting up a custom repository and automating package builds is pretty easy, especially compared to Spacewalk (which I want to like, I really do).

Re: Debian developer prompted to revisit FreeBSD after 20 years

#45
post #40
post #31

That's a good overall article - I've been switching back and forth between FreeBSD and Debian for several years now, and I never spend more than a couple of month without using one of them. The one thing that surprised me was his take on FreeBSD's package management system, pkg. PKG is relatively new, having been released in late summer 2012. Prior to that, FreeBSD relied on the ports collection, which was (is) a vas…

For at least as long as I've been using it (7+), FreeBSD has always had binary and source packages. Ports are still very much existent and supported (and needed if you want anything custom). All pkg replaces is the old way of getting/managing binary packages (pkg_add, pkg_delete, pkg_info, etc).

You're 100% correct. Sorry about that, my fingers didn't translate what I had in my head in regards to pkgng replacing the old separate multi-component way of handling binary packages.

My understanding was that pkgng is a architectural overhaul in addition to a simple client clean-up - configuration is different for example. What I was trying to get to was that the newer design is barely two years old in production. I should have written this more clearly and did not, thanks and sorry.

Re: Debian developer prompted to revisit FreeBSD after 20 years

#46
It's a shame FreeBSD was the chosen BSD to do this comparison. It always seemed to me that FreeBSD felt almost-like-linux.

It also seems to me that most of the issues mentioned would be non-issues for OpenBSD (though it does not support ZFS, which the op wants).

Re: Debian developer prompted to revisit FreeBSD after 20 years

#47
post #35
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think there were too many people in that debate who were dissatisfied with the idea of a new init system That's funny, because the loudest voices all seem to be insisting that an unholy shitpile of init scripts a la SysV was the One True Unix Way and had been forever (which shows how young they are, but I digress). The number of people pushing for smf/launchd equivalents (let alone working on them) is tiny…

I'd rather have OpenRC (edit: and I wouldn't mind upstart, either... it's pretty slick). You're creating a false dichotomy. Just because SysV-style initscripts are a mess doesn't mean systemd is the only viable option.

And you're creating a strawman. rodgerd didn't say that the only two options were SysVinit and systemd, but that the loudest critics of systemd wanted to keep SysVinit. Whether that's true or not is another point (and not objectively decidable since "loudest" is pretty subjective), but it's obviously not the false dichotomy you're accusing him of.

Re: Debian developer prompted to revisit FreeBSD after 20 years

#48
post #3

Apparently this is because FreeBSD has nothing like Linux’s inotify. It has kqueue, which is a generic event mechanism that can take the place of inotify, signalfd, eventfd, timerfd and others on Linux systems. It has a bit of a learning curve, but it's actually neat. Concerning platform support, that has always been NetBSD's shining ground.

I dont think kqueue fulfils the need of listening on file system events. Mac OSX has FS Events, to fill the need of inotify. Kqueue is more of a replacement for Epoll and works consistently across all file descriptors, not necessary for listening events on file paths.

I'm almost 100% certain FSEvents uses kqueue internally. You can definitely use kqueue for the same things you'd need inotify for on Linux.

Re: Debian developer prompted to revisit FreeBSD after 20 years

#49
post #31

That's a good overall article - I've been switching back and forth between FreeBSD and Debian for several years now, and I never spend more than a couple of month without using one of them. The one thing that surprised me was his take on FreeBSD's package management system, pkg. PKG is relatively new, having been released in late summer 2012. Prior to that, FreeBSD relied on the ports collection, which was (is) a vas…

I really like that FreeBSD has binary package management. I started my journey into Unix almost 10 years ago with FreeBSD Unleashed. I am considering writing a comparison command-to-command of apt-get vs. pkg, and differences in behavior. * Are packages from the FreeBSD repos pinned the same way Ubuntu packages are, relase to release? Are there multiple repos (comparable to universe/multiverse, updates/backports)? *…

Right now, there's only a single package repository for each major FreeBSD release. The ABI doesn't normally change within major releases, so packages built on FreeBSD 10.0 will work on FreeBSD 10.1 (and vice verse).

A pkgng repository can contain older versions of packages, but "/latest" is tree of symlinks to the most recent versions in the repo.

The FreeBSD Ports Tree isn't tagged, so there's nothing equivalent to updates or backports. Sometimes, that means packages won't build on older (or newer) versions of FreeBSD, or it means that the ports infrastructure as a whole won't work properly once you go more than a few releases back. The FTP archive keeps copies of binary packages included with past FreeBSD releases (all the way back to 1.0). Generally, that means everyone using the latest version of Firefox from ports on FreeBSD 9.x, 10.x, and 11.x are going to be running Firefox 35.0.1_1,1. The ports maintainer might include FreeBSD release-specific patches in the package build scripts to handle any differences among currently (or formerly) supported FreeBSD releases.

I don't remember what universe or multiverse contain. If those are the ones that have stuff separated out based on the software package's licensing, ports/pkgng includes logic to handle EULA acceptance for non-free stuff. You can also configure it to _not_ accept a license, in which case packages that use a rejected license will fail to build.

Regarding jails, please see "man pkg". You can give pkgng a jail name or ID, and it will automatically connect to that jail to perform whatever task you asked of it.

apt-get update == pkg update ("man pkg-update"), usually unnecessary

apt-get upgrade == pkg upgrade ("man pkg-upgrade"), automatically updates the repo metadata by default

apt-get purge == pkg delete ("man pkg-delete")

apt-get autoclean == pkg autoremove ("man pkg-autoremove")

apt-cache showpkg == pkg info ("man pkg-info")

apt-cache search == pkg search ("man pkg-search")

dpkg-reconfigure does not have an equivalent on FreeBSD. FreeBSD in general takes a default-deny stance on things, so post-package setup usually has to be handled by the sysadmin. There are a few packages that do some interactive post-install setup, but I personally consider this a huge bug (e.g., mail/postfix). Port maintainers generally display post-install setup instructions instead. You can read these via "pkg info". I use the Salt configuration management system, personally.

As for documentation, the FreeBSD Handbook or manual pages are always the first places you should look. There's also some info about pkgng on the wiki, but it's pretty dated as at this point, all of that stuff has been merged into FreeBSD.

Re: Debian developer prompted to revisit FreeBSD after 20 years

#50
post #31

That's a good overall article - I've been switching back and forth between FreeBSD and Debian for several years now, and I never spend more than a couple of month without using one of them. The one thing that surprised me was his take on FreeBSD's package management system, pkg. PKG is relatively new, having been released in late summer 2012. Prior to that, FreeBSD relied on the ports collection, which was (is) a vas…

I really like that FreeBSD has binary package management. I started my journey into Unix almost 10 years ago with FreeBSD Unleashed. I am considering writing a comparison command-to-command of apt-get vs. pkg, and differences in behavior. * Are packages from the FreeBSD repos pinned the same way Ubuntu packages are, relase to release? Are there multiple repos (comparable to universe/multiverse, updates/backports)? *…

I want to add that the FreeBSD ports management team is probably too small to handle complicated release management and backporting schemes like you see with RHEL or Ubuntu. That said, nothing stops you from doing it if you wanted. You can set up your own binary package repository using Poudriere. That's what I do; I tend to update everything quarterly unless there's a serious security flaw in something.
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