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The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

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Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#31
This is a very touchy area. Firms can pay $20 an hour for cleaning services precisely because they're not paying for sick days, health insurance and the like. If they have to pay all that, then the wages go down. This is one of many reasons why a large company will pay a company like Accenture two or three times the salary compensation of it's own employees. (There are other reasons too, like having someone to blame when things go wrong.)

In my mind, as long as everyone has open eyes up front, it's all good. If Uber treats people poorly, they can go to Lyft. The key is insuring more competition for the workers. That more than anything else will drive how they get treated. If there are 100 cleaning jobs, and only 90 workers, and multiple vendors, then Handy can't mistreat the workers.

On a side note, I've used Handy in the past, and have had mixed experiences. Some are great, some show up so late that I've had to cancel appointments. Not sure if this would have changed if they were employees.

Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#32
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.careerusa.org/resources/career-files/100-resource... The IRS uses a 20 item check list. Reading though the list "So if I hire someone to play Princess Elsa at my daughter's birthday party" would clearly be a 1099. However, if they work though an agency then they might qualify as a w-2 for that agency.

Great link! I can't help but think this could be the root of the problem: This 20-point checklist is only a guideline; it does not guarantee that a person is correctly classified. Most agencies and courts typically look to the totality of the circumstances and balance the factors to determine whether a worker is an employee.

No, the root of the problem is companies that want staff who they can work like employees but who they don't have to pay like employees, provide benefits to like employees, or accept liability on behalf of like employees.

There's nothing remotely new or novel about that; it's a dodge that companies have been trying to get away with for as long as labor law has existed.

Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#34
post #29

Ah, you mean "Using capitalism as a cudgel to undo the social advances from the 1930's". I shed no tear if Uber and the likes of companies that use 1099 to destroy employee rights. For those that believe that Uber and the like are good for the US and the economy, I have a question for you: 1. What happens if we have 10% unemployment? We already have; this answer is simple. 2. We turn the screws of automation and comp…

3. What happens, when we find out that everybody's job can be hyper-specialized and broken down so robots can do them... which leads to >95% unemployment?

In such a society, 95% of the people will get to do whatever they want, rather than working for a living. I don't see the problem.

Too often, the assumption that near-100% employment is desirable goes unchallenged. We're people, not ants.

Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will never occur, as businesses employing these workers want employee level of control with independent contractor costs.

Bingo. What all of these supposed "gig" economy jobs have in common is the parent company's tendency to shift all the risk to non-employees / ICs while reaping most of the economic value of the reward -- taking a heftier cut than it should from the business transaction. The value derived from being an IC that's truly independent is being able to charge more for the "temporary" nature of the work and the risk of end-c…

Right, that's all context around this situation. Obviously companies want whatever they can get.

But it's actually less grim than it seems:

1. there are laws,

2. the price pressures exist for the coordinating companies as well, as long as there continues to be competition, and

3. 'real' autonomy has a lot of benefits for people who are into that.

So first, there are already laws for this. (Which may or may not be sufficient regulation, but they cover a certain amount of what's discussed in the article, hence the lawsuit). Existing laws already stipulate what is/isn't a private contractor, for instance.

Ie, for work like programming, usually one can't be mandated to work in a specific office, or on specific hours, unless there's something about the job that particularly demands it. (Not that this sort of thing comes up a lot in programming, but there are definitely laws around this).

And in fact it's much easier for companies like Uber and Handy to be targeted for misclassification of workers than the more informal economies of construction workers, etc. So if there are holes in the law and they get plugged, that could be cool.

Secondly, "taking a heftier cut than it should from the business transaction" isn't a very damning indictment. But if Uber faces real competition with Lyft, for instance, the cut they can take is dictated by the market, both for drivers and passengers!

Lastly, it's not just workers taking on risk. Workers also gain freedom.

That sounds comical to some.

But I know a lot of people who are very passionate about volunteer work, and absolutely love jobs that they can do for a few hours a week and forget about -- even if it means they're living very simply. (I'm one of those people myself).

Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#36
post #29

Ah, you mean "Using capitalism as a cudgel to undo the social advances from the 1930's". I shed no tear if Uber and the likes of companies that use 1099 to destroy employee rights. For those that believe that Uber and the like are good for the US and the economy, I have a question for you: 1. What happens if we have 10% unemployment? We already have; this answer is simple. 2. We turn the screws of automation and comp…

3. What happens, when we find out that everybody's job can be hyper-specialized and broken down so robots can do them... which leads to >95% unemployment? In such a society, 95% of the people will get to do whatever they want, rather than working for a living. I don't see the problem. Too often, the assumption that near-100% employment is desirable goes unchallenged. We're people, not ants.

But in our current schema of society, it would indicate that 95% of the people would be on some sort of subsistence form of government aid.

In that case, they will do what they want, as long as it doesn't include costs. That seems like a very dead society, with people depressed about no work and no money.

Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#37
Why doesn't the "market" sort this problem out.

Essentially these companies "own" connecting supply and demand, but I fail to see how that prevents competition from forming and providing a better alternative for both?

Right now, as a demand user of Uber, I like that the company is very protective of my experience, something that is painstakingly difficult with traditional taxi services. But if Lyft offered me the same experience or better, my switching cost is nil.

Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#38
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3. What happens, when we find out that everybody's job can be hyper-specialized and broken down so robots can do them... which leads to >95% unemployment? In such a society, 95% of the people will get to do whatever they want, rather than working for a living. I don't see the problem. Too often, the assumption that near-100% employment is desirable goes unchallenged. We're people, not ants.

But in our current schema of society, it would indicate that 95% of the people would be on some sort of subsistence form of government aid. In that case, they will do what they want, as long as it doesn't include costs. That seems like a very dead society, with people depressed about no work and no money.

They would probably operate largely outside the modern, formal economy. Grow their own food, do odd jobs for pay, solicit spare change, etc. Kind of like homeless people do now.

Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#39
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The rules, such as they are, seem fairly straightforward. The laws are anything but straightforward. For starters there are 50 States with each one having different laws. Take Florida where I have personally represented employers and employees/Independent contractors in these types of matters. The FL case law establishes, what in my opinion is the very worst kind of law, a factors test. So essentially there are a nu…

The rules the parent commenter is referring to are federal, and extraordinarily well-known, because several generations of businesses have tried to come up with ways to skirt them to avoid taxes. As far as I understand the rules, the "most heavily weighted factor" you cite is in fact not an IRS employee classification factor at all. A contractor can still be classified as an employee even though they bill through an…

Even upon rereading OP it is not clear it was referring to Federal Law, there is even mention of both State and Federal Departments of labor, so I think use of the word rule was an all encompassing term for classification law. Still it only adds to the problems with this area of the law, after all it is not only possible, but common, for an individual to be classified as an employee/independent contractor on the federal level and then classified the opposite at the state level.

Nevertheless, while the federal classification 20 factors have been around for about 30 years, since the enactment of the Revenue Act the IRS has been prohibited from issuing regulations and rulings with respect to the employment status of any individuals. As a result the IRS acknowledges the same subjectivity going so far as to admit different IRS agents may reach different conclusions, the Courts are no different and hence my calling factors tests the worst kind of law.

>As far as I understand the rules, the "most heavily weighted factor" you cite is in fact not an IRS employee classification factor at all. A contractor can still be classified as an employee...

This is likely due to the IRS being prohibited from issuing rules and regulations, and as a result in the words of the IRS, "Previously issued guidance may not reflect current case law, statutory changes, or changes in workplace situations." However, you are correct that this factor, under FL case law, though weighted more heavily is not determinative by any means.

Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#40
Along with the legal gymnastics regarding independent contractors, this struck me as notable:

"If Solominsky had built his own handyman business, he would not be so impacted by the decisions of another company. But all he has of his supposedly independent business—his pages and pages of glowing reviews, his nearly unanimous five-star ratings—is tied up on the TaskRabbit platform."

Something to keep in mind as/before we replace an economy built on independent small businesses with an economy of "independent" Uber drivers, Amazon sellers, etc.

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