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The Expert in a Year Challenge

experttabletennis.com

31–40 of 69 posts

Re: The Expert in a Year Challenge

#31
post #28
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're in the top 250 out of 1000, that doesn't make you average. By definition it's well above average. Moreover, the 1000 ranked players do not represent the continuum of players overall. They are all significantly better than the actual average, which is why they are ranked.

Great spin off on the word average here. It makes you average at table tennis. But we are talking about being an "expert". So 250 in England does not make you an expert at table tennis. Also if you knew what you were talking about then you would know that if I want to get ranking ( just for the ranking sake) I would craft my schedule in a way so I play weak tournaments just to get ranking. Ranking and expertise corre…

At this point, it would probably be helpful if you told us your definition of the word "expert".

Re: The Expert in a Year Challenge

#32
post #13
post #12

[deleted]

What's your issue with the word "expert"? The guy was trying to land in the top 250 in a year. That would comfortably place him in the "expert" player category (had he succeeded).

I think expert here is dependent on different people's perspective.

My credibility: I had over a 2000+ USATT rating 8 years ago, was #1 under 18 in Texas, top 10 under 18 in USA. I trained in China (WuHan and Shanghai) for 2 summers at my peak. My training buddy and archrival is currently the USA national champion - Timothy Wang, originally from Houston who quit highschool to pursue the sport professionally in Europe.

The kid from my perspective is still an enthusiast (my perspective). Granted, he's playing tournaments and learning but there's another huge gap between where he is now and an "expert" or "pro" in the US.

There's yet another HUGE gap between the #1 in the USA and top 250 or "expert" in the world. Timothy went to the Olympics in 2008 and lost in his first match to a 14 year old from Korea: 4-0. The "expert" skill and experience difference is vastly different and is just a moniker that is being used in his marketing. =)

To get to where he is at in a year is commendable and definitely takes dedication - to get to an "expert" simply takes time and playing hundreds if not thousands of different players at tournaments, leagues, etc...

My father is the #1 senior TT player in the US based on the last senior olympics open in 2014. He is in his mid 60's and still poses a commendable challenge to the top 250 players in the US simply due to his play style, experience, and racquet/paddle (pips out and pen hold) - not saying he always wins the match, but he can typically take a couple games out of 7. Experts/pros adjust much quicker.

Anyhoo, table tennis is a great sport with little to no risk of getting a life threatening injury. It is relatively cheap and provides an amazing workout when played at the "enthusiast" level.

Love that he's bringing more awareness to the sport. It is under appreciated and typically exists in the Forest Gump/Balls of Fury/frat houses of the world.

Re: The Expert in a Year Challenge

#33
post #7

Related is The Dan Plan in which a chap is trying to become a pro golfer by dedicating 10,000 hours to it (from zero experience) [1]. I seem to recall it was after Malcolm Gladwell claimed that it takes that long to achieve mastery in a discipline. Dan's almost at the 5 year mark now. I check back a couple of times a year to see how he's getting on. [1] http://www.thedanplan.com

Gladwell's 10,000-hour-rule is, at its core, anecdotal. The 10,000-hour-rule seems like more of an observation that people who are really good at things are likely to have spent a lot of time doing them. My anecdotal observation: The people I know who are masters of things, were very good at those things early on and that encouraged them to practice more and more.

I thought it was, at its core, research made by K. Anders Ericsson ("The Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance"), but I have to confess that I have read neither author, so could you please expand on why it is anecdotal? Thank you!

UPDATE: Wow there seems to be a lot of information in previous HN threads such as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7323837 or https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8197102 and a response to my question in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8197467

Re: The Expert in a Year Challenge

#34
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great spin off on the word average here. It makes you average at table tennis. But we are talking about being an "expert". So 250 in England does not make you an expert at table tennis. Also if you knew what you were talking about then you would know that if I want to get ranking ( just for the ranking sake) I would craft my schedule in a way so I play weak tournaments just to get ranking. Ranking and expertise corre…

At this point, it would probably be helpful if you told us your definition of the word "expert".

Please, see taylorhou response.

Re: The Expert in a Year Challenge

#35
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your issue with the word "expert"? The guy was trying to land in the top 250 in a year. That would comfortably place him in the "expert" player category (had he succeeded).

I think expert here is dependent on different people's perspective. My credibility: I had over a 2000+ USATT rating 8 years ago, was #1 under 18 in Texas, top 10 under 18 in USA. I trained in China (WuHan and Shanghai) for 2 summers at my peak. My training buddy and archrival is currently the USA national champion - Timothy Wang, originally from Houston who quit highschool to pursue the sport professionally in Europe…

I totally agree that this guy did not actually reach expert status. You're correct in labeling him an enthusiast. I think, though, if he'd hit his goal of ranking in the top 250 for England, there'd be a compelling argument for considering him an expert.

At some point, "expert" status necessarily comes down to a subjective and somewhat arbitrary line between players that are very close in skill. Are the top 10 experts? Top 100? Top 1000? If you're comparing to the average Joe, all of these could probably be considered experts. If you're only considering the elite of the elite, then maybe only the top 10 get that classification.

If you look at the NFL, there are almost 1700 players. Obviously these guys cannot all fit into even the top 1000 ranking. Yet all of them are generally considered to be elite players (or they wouldn't retain employment), and they're all being paid over $400K/year for their skills. Arguably, all of these guys are experts at what they do.

Or look at doctors. There are about 300 cardiothoracic surgeons in the US and Canada. You could rank these doctors and come up with a list and arbitrarily say that the top ten are the experts in cardiac surgery. But they are all experts, relative to not only the general population, but to the population of practicing physicians.

Re: The Expert in a Year Challenge

#36
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think expert here is dependent on different people's perspective. My credibility: I had over a 2000+ USATT rating 8 years ago, was #1 under 18 in Texas, top 10 under 18 in USA. I trained in China (WuHan and Shanghai) for 2 summers at my peak. My training buddy and archrival is currently the USA national champion - Timothy Wang, originally from Houston who quit highschool to pursue the sport professionally in Europe…

I totally agree that this guy did not actually reach expert status. You're correct in labeling him an enthusiast. I think, though, if he'd hit his goal of ranking in the top 250 for England, there'd be a compelling argument for considering him an expert. At some point, "expert" status necessarily comes down to a subjective and somewhat arbitrary line between players that are very close in skill. Are the top 10 expert…

"I totally agree that this guy did not actually reach expert status. You're correct in labeling him an enthusiast."

You are such a hypocrite. If you are 250 in England it does not give you a compelling argument to consider yourself an expert at this SPORT unless there are 250 players from England, who are ranked in ITTF.

I guarantee you that a person, who is in top 50 in England is not even close in skill to the one, who is 250. In any sport there are "experts", who can teach the skill very well. They might not even be really good at this sport. Tons of amazing football coaches haven't been that good at football.

Expert in playing (competing) in any sport is the one who can prove not with his ranking but through his match averages against top 50, top 100, top 200 players in a certain sport. As I already mentioned, ranking system is completely flawed, especially for the bottom tier players.

Seriously, you are talking about doctors? Doctors receive very similar in the US (standardized) training and they don't spent 1 year to be an "expert". How about 12 years for cardio surgery? And, yes, all doctors are experts at what they do.

Re: The Expert in a Year Challenge

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good read on the 10,000 hour myth. I can't remember where I originally heard that the idea as pushed by Gladwell has been debunked, probably the You are not so smart podcast. I've no personal insight to say whether this is a rule or a myth but the original researcher seems to disagree with the popsci understanding of it. http://changingthegameproject.com/the-10000-hour-myth/

A research paper authored last year cited a study which found that only 30% of the variation in performance could be attributed to deliberate practice. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289613...

Very interesting, thanks

Re: The Expert in a Year Challenge

#38
Always sad to see this myth live on. It is simultaneously as self-evident as it is nonsensical.

1) Yes you get better with practice 2) Some faster than others 3) Some with a higher peak than others 4) It is neither necessary, nor sufficient with 10 000 hours effective practice (some win the world championship in high jump after less than a year [Donald Thomas 2007], others will never become chess champions, or even ranked among the top 10 000, after 30 000 hours' dedicated practice) 5) Even the original study just put 10k hours as the AVERAGE practice time for THOSE few that eventually became masters (i.e. were super-talented), with a range of 3k-30k hours needed.

However, always good to see people wanting to expand their skill set through dedicated work - admirable

(but has NOTHING to do with the fundamentally flawed 10k hr roule)

Re: The Expert in a Year Challenge

#39
post #9
post #7

Related is The Dan Plan in which a chap is trying to become a pro golfer by dedicating 10,000 hours to it (from zero experience) [1]. I seem to recall it was after Malcolm Gladwell claimed that it takes that long to achieve mastery in a discipline. Dan's almost at the 5 year mark now. I check back a couple of times a year to see how he's getting on. [1] http://www.thedanplan.com

It will be interesting to see how well Gladwell's claim stands up to empirical testing.

The "Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 Hour rule" Rule:

In any discussion about mastery, people who have never read Outliers will attribute Gladwell with the idea of the 10,000 Hour Rule, take it out of context, and argue with it as if it were the main point of the book, or as if it was presented as a hard and fast rule.

Re: The Expert in a Year Challenge

#40

Always sad to see this myth live on. It is simultaneously as self-evident as it is nonsensical. 1) Yes you get better with practice 2) Some faster than others 3) Some with a higher peak than others 4) It is neither necessary, nor sufficient with 10 000 hours effective practice (some win the world championship in high jump after less than a year [Donald Thomas 2007], others will never become chess champions, or even r…

10,000 hours has got to be the least interesting concept in the body of work around deliberate practice. But it is somehow the concept that is most widely known.

I would love to know the psychology behind why that concept was so sticky given that it seems self-evidently worthless to know where the theoretical cap on self-improvement lies. I mean, how many things do we put 10k hours of practice in to?

The much better concepts from this world are:

* The deliberate part of deliberate practice. There are very different qualities of practice. Tim Ferriss is making a living on hunting down concepts around minimum effective doses of practice and his third book (Chef) is very good for this. These are all essentially finding more effective ways to practice so that you get more out of each hour.

* The experienced non-expert as an explanation (and pejorative) for everyone who has 10,000 hours of experience but isn't very good.

* Difficulty: the ideal practice difficulty is uncomfortable, falling between trivial and demoralizing.

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