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Ask HN: Working through burnout?

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Re: Ask HN: Working through burnout?

#41
post #28

Be sure you covered all your supplements. If you work indoors, you almost certainly don't get enough vitamin D. Also, multivitamins. Additionally, I take fish oil, ginkgo, and saffron and find my brain fog to be improved. But I think the Vitamin D is essential. There is good information about supplements on examine.com

If only burnout could be fixed with food supplements...

Yeah I'm not saying it can be completely fixed with supplements, but when he mentions having to read the same sentence 3 times...it sounds like it could be more than just burn out. In my experience, when I've been at that level of disorientation, I've found supplements actually do help.

I agree though, no supplement is going to completely save the day here.

Re: Ask HN: Working through burnout?

#42
There are some drugs to help people with real medical conditions like narcolepsy that can help and have been known to help.

Natural stuff, take more breaks, and just have in the back of your mind that better days (specially nights are ahead).

Avoid burnouts, I was on some pills for a year to launch a product and then, first I got fired cause I couldn't do shit, then I slept for a month and couldn't get a job to save my life. That was 6 years ago, and is now that I feel better. Don't be STUPID is not worth it.

Re: Ask HN: Working through burnout?

#43
post #8

If you're as fogged out as you seem to be, then the hours you're spending at work are pretty much completely unproductive. I'd suggest you use them more wisely by going home and getting a really good nights sleep. Consider it an investment in being more productive tomorrow.

That is useless advice. More so, it is hurtful advice. "Get a long night sleep" is not always an option. And the person above is clearly asking "When a long night of sleep is not an option, what else can I do?" We all know there are professions (fire fighters, police, soldiers, nurses, doctors, computer programmers, etc) where it is sometimes necessary to work extreme hours. And the question being asked is clearly, h…

We disagree. I've 35+ years professional programming experience and have done plenty of insane 90+ hour weeks. I've done coffee by the bucketful, cold showers in the early hours, loud music to keep awake, slapping myself to get the adrenalin going. On one project I began a shift at 7am on Friday, programmed until the early hours of Monday, drove 300 miles, installed and trained users, and collapsed into bed late Monday evening. I'm sure you've done more, and I'm not trying to start a peeing competition, just point out that I do have experience of this.

I still maintain that (possibly other than drugs), sleep is his best friend. He's largely unproductive at the moment, so a few hours "lost" to sleep is no real loss. What it will probably do is make his remaining wakeful hours more productive.

"If you have no answer, then don't post anything, and let others answer."

I don't see any answers in your post.

Re: Ask HN: Working through burnout?

#44
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no reason for extreme hours for programmers, it's just wasted time. More companies should embrace 6 hour work days and 4 day work weeks, as people are then forced to work on only the important things and not do any busywork. Go get a good long sleep. Rest. Get a hammock and sleep on parks. Enjoy life. Work is not life. Work is means to an end but not life.

Do you realize that the question being asked has nothing to do with what you are suggesting? The question is clearly about those situations where "Go get a good long sleep" is not an option. Are you going to argue that "Go get a good long sleep" is always an option, under all circumstances? if so, make that argument: detail the cases where the whole company was depending on you to reach some crucial deadline, and you…

> I started getting ready for the demo on Monday, and I kept running into bugs, more and more bugs, endless bugs. I ended up working for 20 hours, then getting 2 hours of sleep, then working for 20 more hours, so that we could give a demo on that Wednesday that was bug free.

And how good was your bugbusting on Tuesday? If you'd gone home at 5, got a proper night's sleep, and done a 6 hour day on Tuesday with a clear head, do you think you'd've caught more, or fewer bugs?

(mildly fictionalized account) Last week I pulled my colleague away from trying to fix some data loss in our production system. He pointed out, quite correctly, that unless this was fixed by midnight then our client reports would be incorrect. They were; we've apologised; we may lose clients over this. I still maintain it was the correct decision, because if he'd continued to mess with the production system in that state, there's a non-negligible chance those incorrect reports could've turned into something much worse.

Re: Ask HN: Working through burnout?

#45
Take breaks and try excercise. I can tell you what won't work. Any "Smart drugs" I say this becasue I have been on amphetamines for years. The secret they don't want you to know? They stop working.. And you need more and more. Try to stop them? Not without a few months of having zero energy or being able to think at all. Stay away from "quick fixes" this includes nootropics. There is no simple solution and no substitute for resting and not overworking.

Re: Ask HN: Working through burnout?

#46
For me, this is what I do and what has worked for me thus far.

Mental preparation. Always have conversations with yourself about your state of mind, be your own therapist, I tell myself that I'm blessed and working 24/7 is nothing. There are folks who have a much more physical and mentally demanding jobs.

There are people who are living in war zone and their job everyday is to survive, to avoid getting shot, blown to bits, find food within that chaos and still do whatever they have to do. There is no timeouts, no rest, the action could begin right while you are sleeping and you have to jump and get back at it. As a software developer, we have it easy. I imagine myself as a survivor in the midst of a war. I won't crack and I'm ready for whatever.

Cuss loud if you have to, laugh loud when you have to, have fun within the work, don't be 100% zoned in, while working, crack jokes, laugh, balance it out. You can do it. If you are mentally tough, you will not burnout. The physical toll on your body tho is a different matter, my biggest issue is that of eating right and weight gain. Best of luck.

Re: Ask HN: Working through burnout?

#47

For me, this is what I do and what has worked for me thus far. Mental preparation. Always have conversations with yourself about your state of mind, be your own therapist, I tell myself that I'm blessed and working 24/7 is nothing. There are folks who have a much more physical and mentally demanding jobs. There are people who are living in war zone and their job everyday is to survive, to avoid getting shot, blown to…

"be your own therapist" That's impossible. It's like being your own dentist when you have problems in your teeth.

Re: Ask HN: Working through burnout?

#48
post #45

Take breaks and try excercise. I can tell you what won't work. Any "Smart drugs" I say this becasue I have been on amphetamines for years. The secret they don't want you to know? They stop working.. And you need more and more. Try to stop them? Not without a few months of having zero energy or being able to think at all. Stay away from "quick fixes" this includes nootropics. There is no simple solution and no substit…

Continued use of nootropics is definitely not advised. I would say that they do have a time and place if you're really not feeling it or over-tired. This curbs dependency and tolerance issues. Addictive personalities should steer clear.

Re: Ask HN: Working through burnout?

#49
post #37

What will happen if you release in 8 days instead of 3? What will happen if you release in 3 days but with a major bug? What will happen if you release in 3 days, but you cut features that don't work?

Bingo. Is this a real deadline, as in the work will be worthless if it's done the day after, or is it just a target date? If the latter, communicate (important!) in clear terms that it will be late and push back if anyone complains about it. Then get some goddamn sleep, go for a bike ride, play some Xbox, whatever. It Is Not Your Fault It's Late.

This is very likely a project management problem and should be treated as such. If anyone tries to blame you, blame the project management process, unapologetically and unhesitatingly. Do not sacrifice your health/sanity to make up for shitty project management or ridiculous expectations. If the rest of the company refuses to see it your way and work toward fixing their probably-broken processes immediately, start sending our résumés.

Re: Ask HN: Working through burnout?

#50
post #39

I totally know the feeling and have had to really dig deeply in the past year. Here are some things that worked. 1) Be ruthless about what you need to accomplish. This means choosing what to "do poorly" at. Sure everything is "important" but it's time to secretly throw a few things overboard. 2) Do whatever you can to optimize your wellbeing. Go to bed early and sleep enough. (1/3 dose of melatonin if you have troubl…

Totally agree with #1, drop things that are not really necessary. This is hard as if you care and are passionate about what you do, because you won't think you can drop anything. Trust me you can.

Exercise and eating are critical, something I personally fail at all too often when I get stressed. Supplements like others have said aren't going to fix the problem, but can help you control some of the symptoms (Vitamin B6, B12 & D are really good here). Just stay away from powerful drugs if at all possible, masking the symptom with a potent drug isn't worth the pain later. However, that said, sometimes in life it is necessary, so be your own judge.

Don't believe in the fallacy that you will take a week off when this deadline is met. Cause the reality is you will likely feel, I can't leave now because what if X happens, or Y etc. Instead, its likely time to renegotiate the deadline, likely was time 2+ weeks ago, but either way just do it.

Failure can be defined a lot of ways, missing a deadline is generally not one of them when the cost of missing it exceeds the value it offers. I have seen many deadlines set by a startup or small business because they feel they have to get to market by day X or they miss the boat, fail, go out of business, you name it. Guess what, Day X comes and nothing changes except the team is burnt and bitter at minimum for awhile. As usually even moderate success is Day X + Y. If the date has been long announced then yes meeting the date may be critical, but how you meet the date is still negotiable.

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