Could driverless cars own themselves? • Hacker News Board

Re: Could driverless cars own themselves?

#11

Post by knowtheory » Mon, Feb 16, 2015, 5:32 AM UTC

dgreensp wrote: post #7

How about an ownerless house that keeps its own rent money? An ownerless McDonald's franchise? Ownership is not just about money. Driverless cars don't really change anything about the concept of ownership. If you think driverless taxis are such a great idea and you want them to be operated in a non-greedy way, start a non-profit, or start a corporation and make it public so that anyone who wants can invest and share…

Why would this necessarily be true?

Several authors have written about algorithmically generated & operated companies or entities (Charlie Stross, the Ghost in the Shell) either as litigation shields or entities which outlived their owners but continued to operate.

The idea is certainly odd, to essentially create autonomous and roughly speaking self-sufficient/directed artificial creatures, but it's consistent at least.

The thought that makes me saddest i think is just that the core quality we'd imbue humanity's first autonomous creations with would be capitalist wage-slavery (a literal non-hyperbolic one in this case).

Re: Could driverless cars own themselves?

#12

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Feb 16, 2015, 5:50 AM UTC

knowtheory wrote: post #11

dgreensp wrote: post #7

How about an ownerless house that keeps its own rent money? An ownerless McDonald's franchise? Ownership is not just about money. Driverless cars don't really change anything about the concept of ownership. If you think driverless taxis are such a great idea and you want them to be operated in a non-greedy way, start a non-profit, or start a corporation and make it public so that anyone who wants can invest and share…

Why would this necessarily be true? Several authors have written about algorithmically generated & operated companies or entities (Charlie Stross, the Ghost in the Shell) either as litigation shields or entities which outlived their owners but continued to operate. The idea is certainly odd, to essentially create autonomous and roughly speaking self-sufficient/directed artificial creatures, but it's consistent at lea…

[deleted]

Re: Could driverless cars own themselves?

#13

Post by manicdee » Mon, Feb 16, 2015, 6:07 AM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #12

knowtheory wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would this necessarily be true? Several authors have written about algorithmically generated & operated companies or entities (Charlie Stross, the Ghost in the Shell) either as litigation shields or entities which outlived their owners but continued to operate. The idea is certainly odd, to essentially create autonomous and roughly speaking self-sufficient/directed artificial creatures, but it's consistent at lea…

[deleted]

Saddling people with debt, then paying them a minimum wage. Effectively they become slaves unable to leave their employer due to dependencies on things such as lunch programs, health insurance, leave benefits.

This system of wage-slavery is enforced today through police, lawyers, bankers and politicians working in accidental concert to ensure that you must go into debt (by renting or buying a house), and that you must work for whatever wages you can attract (because no money means no place to live), or be thrown in gaol for the sin of being poor.

There are towns in the USA re-introducing debtors prisons ("poor houses") where people who have defaulted on debt repayments can live in penury, having their wages garnished by the state before they get hold of the money themselves.

You mig have other rationalisations for it.

Re: Could driverless cars own themselves?

#14

Post by manicdee » Mon, Feb 16, 2015, 6:10 AM UTC

lifeformed wrote: post #5

This is a cool concept for lots of things, maybe even big things like companies and utilities. A for-profit entity that operates just like a normal one, but is programmed to not to simply maximize profits but to maximize social good. It would work well on things that don't require too much human thinking to run (just balancing equations and running equipment), but are normally hindered by self-interest.

Just be careful that you don't let your "social good maximising" AI talk to your "global resource management" AI.

That is how Skynet happens.

Re: Could driverless cars own themselves?

#15

Post by manicdee » Mon, Feb 16, 2015, 6:11 AM UTC

jbottigliero wrote: post #8

jbottigliero wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although the article talks down the use of AI at face value, my gut reaction to this is; Right, that would be the vehicle's responsibility. In regards to risk specifically, I would like to believe risk/route evaluation at the least is considered as part of a profit algo for the vehicle itself. Yes, this is a assuming a more abundance of data points available to the vehicles itself — but I'd like to assume infrastruct…

And I think for the sake of the thought exercise you have to consider what happens to related markets — specifically in this scenario, risk. If vehicles are no longer being sold to people, neither is auto insurance (at least in today's form).

Car insurance is sold to companies today, which are not natural persons regardless of bizarre laws.

Re: Could driverless cars own themselves?

#16

Post by touristtam » Mon, Feb 16, 2015, 6:14 AM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #3

Well, there is a tree in Athens, Georgia (USA) which legally owns itself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_That_Owns_Itself

> Most writers acknowledge that the deed is lost or no longer exists, if in fact it ever did. Such a deed, even if it did exist, would have no legal standing. Under common law, the person receiving the property in question must have the legal capacity to receive it, and the property must be delivered to—and accepted by—the recipient.

I think the BBC _journalist_ forgot completely to mention this tiny issue regarding a legal person. Fun to read, but more scifi than reality...

Re: Could driverless cars own themselves?

#17

Post by baddox » Mon, Feb 16, 2015, 6:22 AM UTC

Who pays for the manufacturing of these cars?

Re: Could driverless cars own themselves?

#18

Post by eyeareque » Mon, Feb 16, 2015, 6:23 AM UTC

This is an interesting idea, probably ahead of its time. I can't help but think of this quote: "Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do."

Re: Could driverless cars own themselves?

#19

Post by woodman » Mon, Feb 16, 2015, 6:33 AM UTC

dgreensp wrote: post #7

How about an ownerless house that keeps its own rent money? An ownerless McDonald's franchise? Ownership is not just about money. Driverless cars don't really change anything about the concept of ownership. If you think driverless taxis are such a great idea and you want them to be operated in a non-greedy way, start a non-profit, or start a corporation and make it public so that anyone who wants can invest and share…

> How about an ownerless ...

Are you intentionally changing the subject, or do you equate self ownership to "ownerless"? Or is it that you are skipping ahead logically because you don't recognize a non-human entity as being capable of self ownership? If that is the case, that is the more important issue that needs to be discussed.

Re: Could driverless cars own themselves?

#20

Post by woodman » Mon, Feb 16, 2015, 6:37 AM UTC

lifeformed wrote: post #5

This is a cool concept for lots of things, maybe even big things like companies and utilities. A for-profit entity that operates just like a normal one, but is programmed to not to simply maximize profits but to maximize social good. It would work well on things that don't require too much human thinking to run (just balancing equations and running equipment), but are normally hindered by self-interest.

I think it can be convincingly argued that profit maximizing is social good maximizing, especially in technology. See: every technology ever :)