Earlier quoted context omitted.
Please explain to me how it is fair that, by studying a free online uncaptioned lecture, someone gets even more of an advantage over me just because they weren't born deaf.
Its not fair. By the definition that you were born deaf the situation is already unfair. Its also unfair that people are born with such good looks they can breeze through life. But if the net effect is that good free content will just become unavailable for everyone to achieve a sense of fairness, Then that seems petty and I'm not on board. I hope they lose this case spectacularly as it would set a terrible precedent…
Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Courses
241–250 of 309 posts
Re: Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Courses
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can see the requirement for actually matriculated students. (I wonder if they have to provide ASL signers in-class for deaf students and braille books for the blind.) What I don't see is a requirement for free courses. That would be ridiculous. Why would anyone want to make anything available if someone is going to come around and sue? Instead of suing, why not start a project to automatically CC the videos, someth…
YouTube will already automatically transcribe and add subtitles to some videos, I can't comment on the quality though: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/3038280?hl=en-GB
They find it unacceptable (which in the cherry picked examples is unarguable), and have made that a very significant part of their PR campaign.
Re: Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Courses
#243Earlier quoted context omitted.
Neither MIT nor Harvard are public schools, they are both private.
They both takes tons of government money (admittedly, for research, rather than teaching.)
If central government just gave them a stipend and didn't specify the projects it was to be used on then the argument you're supporting would perhaps have some mileage; but it's payment for a specific service. If the schools aren't making their research centres accessible or are unnecessarily excluding disabled people [from research related tasks/benefits/etc.] then, yes, this argument would be valid.
Re: Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Courses
#244I don't like this type of precedent. If I make a video wherein I teach some concept, but don't provide closed captions, and then distribute the video for free, am I discriminating against the deaf? If I knew I had to create closed captions, and then make a braille transcript, or maybe even make my video colorblind friendly, I just wouldn't make the video in the first place. I sympathize with folks with disabilities,…
Once you learn how to do these things, they become second nature. That's the problem though. People don't think twice about learning a new programming language. But learning how to caption videos, choose colorblind friendly colors, or turn transcripts of a video into something that's braile-display or screen-reader friendly are skills that are relatively simple to acquire and will definitely outlast whatever new fram…
Re: Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Courses
#245I know several of the lawyers involved on the plaintiff's end (several of them blind and/or deaf) on a friendship, nonprofessional level -- and I'm noticing there's a lot of misunderstanding in the comments. However I am not a lawyer nor am I hugely aware of the nuances of the issues, so take this with a grain of salt. Basically the law firm in question is using lawsuits as a method of social activism to compel large…
The worry of a lot of us is that the cheapest and easiest way to comply is to remove the content. Once gone the problem is solved. That may not be the intent, but if I were in the universities shoes that is EXACTLY what I would do. Even worse if I have to pay lawyers and transcribers.
This will have a severe chilling effect on such productions, above and beyond the not trivial costs of getting high quality captions, which for technical material---which includes plenty of specialized humanities stuff, not just math, physics, etc.---is particularly expensive.
Re: Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Courses
#246MIT's OpenCourseWare is Creative Commons licensed, the only restrictions placed on a third party who wanted to caption the courses are 1) attribution, 2) the derivative work must be non-commercial in nature, 3) that the license remains the same. A building without a ramp can't be copied and rebuilt with a ramp without rebuilding the entire thing, but a video without a caption can be copied and captioned without havin…
Now would be a really good time to make sure there are copies of those elsewhere. MIT is not wealthy like Harvard sort of is (long story), and in all cases one needs to remember that the vast majority of endowment money is earmarked (somehow donors trust college administrators only so much, and then there's Princeton). OCW is now in maintenance mode as far as I can tell, with terrible gaps in offerings, like 2nd term…
Re: Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Courses
#247Earlier quoted context omitted.
Read this mendacious, invidious PR thuggery http://nad.org/news/2015/2/nad-sues-harvard-and-mit-discrimi... and tell me again it's "just a lawsuit". And as has been amply pointed out, in the case of any of the outcomes you're calling, a great deal of material will be withdrawn from the net (or campus servers and official Youtube channels), little will be returned, at least from MIT, which doesn't have the money (well…
Well, I had to look up mendacious and invidious, but I believe you're claiming they're lying to provoke an angry reaction. It seemed pretty straightforward to me; they present the lawsuit, explain their interpretation of the law, explain the goals of the suit, and demonstrate why the current captioning system is insufficient. The only line I had any kind of problem with was "No captions is like no ramp for people in…
The Big Lie, if what everyone is saying about Harvard and MIT's joint edX project properly handling their courses correctly is true, is confounding that with MIT Open CourseWare (OCW) "best effort" offerings which we've had the deaf "aldordeah" helpfully confirm: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9042399 (OCW's remit was to publish materials useful to other teachers, with things like self-learning gravy).
Things like, from their PR:
“Online content represents the next frontier for learning and lifelong education,” said Howard A. Rosenblum, NAD’s CEO. “Yet both Harvard and MIT betray their legendary leadership in quality education by denying access to approximately 48 million Americans who are deaf or hard of hearing. All they have to do is provide accurate captioning to such online educational content, yet they provide no or inaccurate captioning which is contrary to these schools’ ideals of excellence and service to all.”
"Betray" is a very strong word, just the sort of thing to provoke an angry reaction.
Then there's the fact that they don't actually call out any specific online courses for not having captioning (which unless OCW has been spending a lot of their money in their new mode on this should have been trivial), but stuff of much less importance, of course leading with a discussion of the holy Brown v. Board of Education, as well as e.g. Bill Gates and Chomsky talking.
Then there's the criticism of the quality of what appears to be Youtube auto-captioning of videos of nothingburger Lady Gaga and Obama visits placed on official Harvard and MIT Youtube channels. Unlike the 3rd example of the President of Liberia talking about Ebola at a Harvard Political Institute event, the only sane thing for institutions to do with the former sorts of events is to not publish them in any form with audio on any venue.
That, plus a lot of the wording, including stuff you incorrectly assume implies that "that these schools were given the resources to "build a ramp" and just decided not to", is clearly designed to provoke an angry reaction. As I've detailed elsewhere, MIT's Open CourseWare was explicitly not "given" the resources to do that, nor do I remember it being part of their fundraising appeals. And I hope you're not claiming Harvard, let alone the much less wealthy MIT, were given the resources to properly caption video of every vacuous celebrity who visits.
If you want, I seem to remember there are more lies that I can detail, but seeing as it not just made me angry, but enraged me after a close reading.... Although see e.g. their gross overstatement of how many people are truly blocked from hearing these soundtracks: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9042760 Not 48 million, "U Gallaudet itself estimates that the percentage of people with severe hearing loss in the US is 2%, half of whom are over 64. Functionally deaf people account for 0.4% of the US population." per SeanLuke.
Especially if you understand that endowment does not equal arbitrarily spendable wealth, the vast majority of gifts are earmarked.
And I suppose it's time again to make the disclaimer that I'm MIT Class of '83 and donate to OCW.
Re: Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Courses
#248Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nobody is making it impossible. People are asking (by means of the public courts, as is their right) for equal access to that knowledge.
for equal access to that knowledge That's according to a narrow view of "equal access." Many people (if not a majority) have an entirely different definition "equal access." On this view, simply putting text or a video up on the Internet without captions is providing equal access: everyone is equally free to download and make use of that information, to the best of their ability. If I am free to publish a video on my…
Just taking this and doing an analysis ...
A) The initial premise is that: one should make reasonable allowances, eg of low cost, to accommodate those who might otherwise be excluded from society in some way due to accident, genetics, medical conditions and such.
B) The subsidiary premise is that: this allowance should be provided as a legal right to those who would otherwise be disproportionately excluded from society.
I don't think that argument holds water against this initial premise. A group has more resources. Making multimedia content accessible isn't required of individuals because it's proportionally excessive. In the same way a small store might not be expected to fit a wheelchair ramp but a supermarket would be expected to (indeed floor level access would probably be stipulated at the planning stage if it weren't already by the supermarket corp).
To put it a different way: if one child comes up to you and asks for food out of a genuine need, you've got a truck full of food. You're probably going to feel morally obligated to feed them. Now suppose a whole country comes to you and says they need food. With that same amount of food you're not going to feel morally obligated.
So, it seems there is some cut off at which the available resources compared to the size of the problem make a difference. I think that is enshrined in the ADA in USA and certainly is in the DDA in UK law.
The final element then in the OP is that (C) Harvard and MIT have the resources and so should also carry the obligation.
I think this is actually where I don't agree. That whilst as a whole they have the resources, for this project they do not. The allocated resources for this project mean that if the obligation were applied to make release of videos require captions and braille transcripts and such that the means available would not be sufficient to continue the project.
An analogue question might be: Does a chain of tiny convenience stores have an obligation to put in wheelchair ramps in some stores even though for the specific store it would be an excessive cost relative to their income.
tl;dr I think it comes down to compartmentalisation of the institutions.
[Perhaps maxharris you're right but just need to present your argument differently?]
Re: Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Courses
#249I know several of the lawyers involved on the plaintiff's end (several of them blind and/or deaf) on a friendship, nonprofessional level -- and I'm noticing there's a lot of misunderstanding in the comments. However I am not a lawyer nor am I hugely aware of the nuances of the issues, so take this with a grain of salt. Basically the law firm in question is using lawsuits as a method of social activism to compel large…
Re: Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Courses
#250Earlier quoted context omitted.
The legal implications go to many schools, so I don't think we're talking about luxury in the context of two elite schools. I think we're talking about the inclusion of minority populations in publicly funded institutions of education, and just how much we want them in our society. Perhaps we do, perhaps we don't, perhaps it's somewhere midway.
Neither MIT nor Harvard are public schools, they are both private.
However, I do think that there should be more mechanism than the purse to persuade institutions to make material accessible to disabled populations -- but for major institutions only, since I'm not sure smaller organizations can cope with the burden. Perhaps organizations above some revenue?