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Rat Park

en.wikipedia.org

61–70 of 72 posts

Re: Rat Park

#61
post #16

I'm just gonna be lazy and link to what I wrote the last time the Rat Park page came up on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7743089 It comes up a lot, maybe because the result is kind of positive and aligns well with HN's crowds drug liberal views? The RP experiment wrt morphine addiction in mice has not been replicated. Also, afaik, Bruce Alexander had a hypothesis about drug addiction, designed an experimen…

> lso, afaik, Bruce Alexander had a hypothesis about drug addiction, designed an experiment to prove his hypothesis. Performed the experiment, measured the results and found that they confirmed his hypothesis.

Uh, what? This is the definition of science.

> Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary proofs. That mice wouldn't become addicted to morphine is most certainly an extraordinary claim.

So says you. Also, extraordinary claims require the same proof as any other claim, that oft cited quote makes no sense. Labeling something 'extraordinary' inherently shows that you have a bias, not the person questioning the claim.

Re: Rat Park

#62
post #3

I lived in an apartment where 6 out of 8 apartments were occupied by alcoholics or drug addicts. Nearly every block on that street was the same. This was Glasgow, and the drug of choice was heroin, although everyone also smoked as much marijuana as they could afford. These people's lives weren't particularly shit on a day-by-day basis, but they had nothing but misery on the horizon. If they had kids they would lose t…

I like this post because it reminds us that humans have a complicated society, unlike rats. Which can muddle the conclusions of this study.

>> I don't know if rats could understand this concept though, which might be why they aren't all living in Afghanistan's poppy fields.

And indeed humans don't.

Re: Rat Park

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suboptimal in what way? We create, develop, improve because we are unsatisfied, not because we are happy.

I don't think that's accurate. Certainly some people work jobs just to get cash to pay bills. But plenty of people create for the fun of it. Our brains operate suboptimal because we can not control their state. We get worried when it provides no benefit. We get sad and troubled when we shouldn't. We experience intense pain with no way to shut it off. We lose focus, even when we really want to concentrate. Everyone sh…

>>Our brains operate suboptimal because we can not control their state.

This is backwards, our brains are us.

>>We lose focus, even when we really want to concentrate.

This is a microcosm of the dangers involved, in modifying brain chemistry. Consider things like hyperfocus or working straight on amphetamine leading to shit code.

>>Our brains operate suboptimal because we can not control their state.

Many of the things you want can be achieved well by a machine or somebody without emotion? Do we want this?

>>Your premise that people should be forced to be unnecessarily unsatisfied because some of them might go on to do great things is cruel.

Its hard to decouple satisfaction from drive, and willpower - we have rather blunt instruments and current drugs build real dependency problems making it almost impossible to stop. Today's drugs don't do what you are talking about.

Re: Rat Park

#64
post #16

I'm just gonna be lazy and link to what I wrote the last time the Rat Park page came up on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7743089 It comes up a lot, maybe because the result is kind of positive and aligns well with HN's crowds drug liberal views? The RP experiment wrt morphine addiction in mice has not been replicated. Also, afaik, Bruce Alexander had a hypothesis about drug addiction, designed an experimen…

I've seen several critical opinions of Stanford Prison and Milgram, and they laid out all their objections. Do you have a link to something that lays out specific objections to the way Rat Park was conducted?

Re: Rat Park

#65
Puts me in mind of a study a few years back where they had socially housed monkeys self-administer cocaine [1]. Like all primates, each group of monkeys ended up with a dominance hierarchy. The most dominant had a relatively nice life compared with the subordinates: more grooming from others, more play, more attention in general.

It turned out that the subordinate monkeys were much more susceptible to the temptations of cocaine. In contrast, the dominant ones were able to resist its allure a lot more effectively.

The researchers also looked at the neurobiology of the monkeys. Before being socially housed, they were kept in individual cages for a couple of years. They looked at the main pleasure centre of the brain and measured the level of dopamine receptors (of the D2 type) present there. These receptors are directly stimulated by naturally occurring rewards like social activity, food, sex, and so on - but also stimulant drugs like cocaine.

All the monkeys had pretty much the same D2 receptor level when they were cooped up in single cages, with little variation. But when they were socially housed, the D2 levels of the dominant monkeys rose significantly higher; this too was associated with their lessened vulnerability to cocaine.

So it seemed that social environment can have quite the effect on the neurobiology of one's reward pathway, and potential for drug abuse (as the Rat Park experiment suggested).

On reward pathways - in human stimulant addicts you also see lower D2 receptor levels than in non-addicts [2], although this is lacking a comparative reading from before they were addicted, so we don't know if that's near the state they were in when they started abusing the drug. Having said that, in non-addicts there is a natural variation in D2 receptor levels, and those with less D2 enjoy stimulants a lot more [3], just like the subordinate, lower D2 receptor monkeys.

Unlike Rat Park, however, all the above is based on stimulants, which directly affect the aforementioned receptors. Whereas morphine takes a more indirect route, with different receptor types, so it's not quite comparable. Still, interesting to think about how much we may be slaves to our neurobiology, and our social surroundings.

[1] doi:10.1038/nn798

[2] doi:10.1177/026988119901300406

[3] doi:10.1176/ajp.156.9.1440

Re: Rat Park

#66
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a problem. You can have any hypothesis and any test. If your test has validity it's a valid way to test the hypothesis. That's it. The scientific process is a social one, and if you feel that an experiment is constructed unfairly, you can devise another experiment to falsify it. Saying that an experiment "confirms" a hypothesis is just a rhetorical trick of the comment parent. Experiments can only ever fa…

This is subtle but important distinction. It is absolutely possible to do a confirming experiment that can give misleading results. There is a nice explanation in the wikipedia article under "Confirmation Bias". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias A striking example is the (2,4,6) test. From wikipedia: "Wason's research on hypothesis-testing The term "confirmation bias" was coined by English psychologist P…

Yes their rules might be more specific than the general rule, but that is not a problem. Their rules were a correct subset of the more general rule (if what you are describing is accurate). Now if they are claiming a broad hypothesis and only providing a set of data that asserts a subset of the hypothesis, that is a problem. They are being misleading one way or another. If the researcher is presenting a hypothesis and misses out on data (for whatever reason), then somebody else will (ideally) point this out. Nonetheless, just acting like this misrepresentation can happen therefore don't trust some particular study is little more than baseless criticism.

Re: Rat Park

#67
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> had a hypothesis about drug addiction, designed an experiment to prove his hypothesis. Performed the experiment, measured the results That's the very definition of the Scientific Method, so I don't understand what problem you're pointing out: "The overall process of the scientific method involves making conjectures ( hypotheses), deriving predictions from them as logical consequences, and then carrying out experime…

The problem is designing an experiment to confirm the hypothesis rather than to test it.

They tested the hypothesis that heroin is addictive by itself, the one supported by the self-administration experiment, and got pretty unexpected results. As far as the scientific method is concerned, their experiment looks ok to me.

It's interesting to note that the criticism of the Rat Park experiment uses exactly the same reasoning Rat Park designers used against self-administering experiment, namely that one of seemingly innocuous parts of experimental setup (isolation and genetic variance respectively) was causing a major results bias.

Re: Rat Park

#68
post #16

I'm just gonna be lazy and link to what I wrote the last time the Rat Park page came up on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7743089 It comes up a lot, maybe because the result is kind of positive and aligns well with HN's crowds drug liberal views? The RP experiment wrt morphine addiction in mice has not been replicated. Also, afaik, Bruce Alexander had a hypothesis about drug addiction, designed an experimen…

If the rats had prefered the morphine solution it would have suggested the hypothsis was false, so it was a reasonable experiment. If other labs attempted the same experiments and were unable to reproduce the same results that would discredit the original but a lack of attempts to reproduce the results does not say anything about the original.

Re: Rat Park

#69
post #3

I lived in an apartment where 6 out of 8 apartments were occupied by alcoholics or drug addicts. Nearly every block on that street was the same. This was Glasgow, and the drug of choice was heroin, although everyone also smoked as much marijuana as they could afford. These people's lives weren't particularly shit on a day-by-day basis, but they had nothing but misery on the horizon. If they had kids they would lose t…

I like this post because it reminds us that humans have a complicated society, unlike rats. Which can muddle the conclusions of this study. >> I don't know if rats could understand this concept though, which might be why they aren't all living in Afghanistan's poppy fields. And indeed humans don't.

>> complicated society, unlike rats. Which can muddle the conclusions of this study

Or rather of any study trying to deduce from rats onto humans. And that's not to say that rats have a non-complicated society.

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