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Paper sizes

royvanrijn.com

181–190 of 206 posts

Re: Paper sizes

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, its the basis of paper weights too, which are measured in grams/m^2

Another thing that the US fails miserably at. 80# cover, 110# index, 24# bond … it’s all meaningless.

Those numbers aren't meaningless. They're the weight of a ream (500 sheets) of that paper at 17x22.

Re: Paper sizes

#183
post #171

And what about US legal? Or Architectural Sizes? Nevermind folios (and quartos and ovtavos). It's a big diverse world with room for all sorts of paper applications. [Architectural Sizes]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_size#Architectural_sizes [folios]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folio_%28printing%29#Size [big diverse world]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_size#Other_sizes

It is a big, diverse world. And various, special use-cases are best addressed with different aspect ratios. But, to me, the point of ISO 216 adoption in place of US Letter (and other common sizes) is about having a general-purpose/common-use aspect ratio with inherent properties that help simplify things across the board for a lot of people. If it wasn't already used so much elsewhere, I'd be a "harder sell" (even to…

Are you volunteering to transition Sun III's physical files cabinets, storage boxes, warehouse shelving? To reconfigure their printers, rewrite their report software etc.?

There's a lot of friction and it all takes place on the ground, unlike translating Python 2 programs to handle Unicode, there's no cloud service model that facilitates the transition.

The wonderful thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from. -- Grace "disputed attribution" Hopper

Re: Paper sizes

#184
I went into a Fedex/Kinko's in the US, to try to print something on A3.

They looked at me as if I had just asked them to sell me a unicorn. They then offered to custom cut a piece of paper for what I'd approximate as several tens of thousands of percent markup.

Re: Paper sizes

#185

Anecdote: the office management/finance/HR people in the european office where I work really, really hate US Letter formats, because they don't really fit in "normal" binders. They're the ones who really suffer from this, because they're the only people who deal with paper format documents these days, I guess.

It's worse over here in the US. At least in Europe the paper doesn't require a different shelf height when dealing with printed materials from 'across the pond'.

I would find it ever so sensible if we would just let imperial measures die over here so we could end the pain of international business.

Re: Paper sizes

#186
post #180
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3) [...] the ANSI paper sizes simply have two aspect ratios alternating as one increases paper size. In relatively big jumps (of the same proportion), though. Not enough in-between sizes (of the same proportion).

So for example you'd be happy if there were a 6"x7.75" and 12"x15.5"?

Yes and no.

Yes, additional sizes address the desire for satisfying the missing in-between sizes.

No, because I'd like to keep it simple and avoid having to do that or even think about it at all.

Basically, with the ANSI sizes you want to satisfy TWO proportions with gradual size changes instead of just ONE proportion with gradual size changes as seen in ISO 216. This is where the discussion cycles back to the utility of 1:√2.

In most offices in the U.S. that I've been in (I say this in a fast and loose fashion), they carry three sizes (with the following typical uses):

(1) ANSI A (US Letter) for standard letters (uses full portrait page) and leaflets (uses one-third landscape page) or booklets (uses half landscape page).

(2) US Legal because there are plenty of legal documents are out there that use US Legal (uses full portrait page). And perhaps as a bonus, but not as frequently seen, US Legal can be folded into small booklets (uses half landscape page). Although, I don't see this happen as much as ANSI A being used for booklets.

(3) ANSI B (Ledger/Tabloid) because it can be great for spreadsheets and folded to US Letter sized pages. Either for collapsing the spreadsheet or for making booklets with US Letter sized pages (uses half landscape page).

Now, yes, I did not mention all uses. I merely mentioned what I have frequently seen used based on my experience. But one of the key take-away points for the "common-use/general-purpose" ANSI A and ANSI B paper sheets is the notion of folding the paper in half to form a booklet.

You don't see many offices carrying ANSI C (17"x22"), which is the next step up from ANSI A maintaining the same proportion. (So availability of this is considered unlikely in this context.)

Of the three, perhaps US Legal can stand alone because it offers a significantly relevant special situation proportion. So, we'll set US Legal aside for now.

And so, you get usage of Half US Letter (1.5454…), Full US Letter (1.2941…), Half Tabloid (which is just US Letter, 1.2941…), Full Tabloid (1.5454…). So, you'll get an oscillation of two distinct proportions with paper that doesn't use 1:√2, and in the case of ANSI A through ANSI E, you get the 1.5454… and 1.2941… oscillation.

Now, if you had ISO 216 sized paper, all of the proportions would be the same no matter what, and it becomes very easy to choose between paper and half-paper sizes because they all work alike with regard to their proportions.

However, with the oscillating ratios, you have to choose which one you're targeting and be sure of it, because the next larger (or next smaller) size is significantly different.

Now, more in-between sizes could solve this, but that also means you'd probably end up carrying around yet another paper size because of it. If you simplify things by getting rid of the dual-proportions and have a unified proportion instead, then the added frustration from the differing layout proportions go away instead of trying to address that with another paper size for something in-between.

So, to parallel the Half US Letter (feels like an oddball that is basically super small Tabloid, 1.5454…), Full US Letter (1.2941…), Half Tabloid (is just Letter, 1.2941…), Full Tabloid (1.5454…):

Half A4 (is just A5, 1.4142…), Full A4 (1.4142…), Half A3 (is just A4, 1.4142…), and Full A3 (1.4142…).

With the layout for Half US Letter, your next proportional step-up is Full Tabloid. (Huge jump!) Or from Tabloid, your next proportional step-down is Half US Letter (Really small!) You could have an in-between size to satisfy it, but it seems excessive when you could have just had used the 1:√2 proportion to begin with and not worry about any of those additional considerations.

---------------------------------------------------------

Saying it another way...

Where, ½·x signifies folding a sheet for purpose as a booklet, and the paper that satisfies that requirement is mentioned inside the cell.

Dealing with only our "letter" size (1) and "tabloid" size (2) sheets that we have in our office, we get the following:

    ANSI    | ½·1 | 1·1 | ½·2 | 1·2 |
            +—————+—————+—————+—————+
    1.2941… | :(  |  A  |  B  | :(  |
            |—————|—————|—————|—————|
    1.5454… |  A  | :(  | :(  |  B  |
            |_____|_____|_____|_____|


    ISO 216 | ½·1 | 1·1 | ½·2 | 1·2 |
            +—————+—————+—————+—————+
    1.4142… | A4  | A4  | A3  | A3  |
            |_____|_____|_____|_____|

With ANSI:

    We don’t have a “half size” booklet with 1.2941… proportions.
    We don’t have a “full size” sheet with 1.5454… proportions.
    We don’t have a “full size” booklet with 1.5454… proportions.
    We don’t have a “double size” sheet with 1.2941… proportions.
With ISO 216:

    We have our “half size” booklet in all our proportions.
    We have our “full size” sheet in all our proportions.
    We have our “full size” booklet in all our proportions. 
    We have our “double size” sheet in all our proportions. 
    (Because we only have one proportion to deal with, 
    there’s no bothering to deal with dual proportions.)
That's four frowning faces (missing solutions for that proportion) on the ANSI side.

---------------------------------------------------------

If we were to expand on this beyond the "two typical sizes found in the office" scenario, we get the following:

    ANSI    | ½·1 | 1·1 | ½·2 | 1·2 | ½·4 | 1·4 | ½·8 | 1·8 | ½·16 | 1·16 |
            +—————+—————+—————+—————+—————+—————+—————+—————+——————+——————|
    1.2941… | :(  |  A  |  B  | :(  | :(  |  C  |  D  | :(  |  :(  |  E   |
            |—————|—————|—————|—————|—————|—————|—————|—————+——————+——————|
    1.5454… |  A  | :(  | :(  |  B  |  C  | :(  | :(  |  D  |  E   |  :(  |
            |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|______|______|


    ISO 216 | ½·1 | 1·1 | ½·2 | 1·2 | ½·4 | 1·4 | ½·8 | 1·8 | ½·16 | 1·16 |
            +—————+—————+—————+—————+—————+—————+—————+—————+——————+——————|
    1.4142… | A4  | A4  | A3  | A3  | A2  | A2  | A1  | A1  | A0   | A0   |
            |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|______|______|

That's 10 frowning faces on the ANSI side, and no frowns on the ISO side. The ISO side inherently avoids the frowning face scenario.

Yes, you could add on another set of sizes to address the missing proportions on the ANSI side. But, that's inelegant and unnecessary if you just went with the ISO way instead.

Re: Paper sizes

#187
My personal rant is that I want a global setting on every printer to override differences in requested page size.

For example, being in the UK, I print to A4, and that is the only size of paper I have available for my printer. If I print stuff from browsers, or documents from US people which are set to page size Letter, I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE TO GO TO THE PRINTER AND PRESS A BUTTON TO PRINT ON THE ONLY PAPER AVAILABLE (A4). Just print everything on A4 please - ignoring page size requests (or at least let me choose the option to do this override).

This is such a pain, and occurs very frequently. Am I alone? I rather assume the inverse applies for US people.

It could be a setting on the printer queue, but then you are at the risk of every operating system or indeed application such as browser getting it wrong... Printer manufacturers please just add a setting to your options - pretty please...

Re: Paper sizes

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counting in base 12 is much better than base 10. 12 has prime factors {2,2,3}, so you get 2,3,4 and 6 as integer divisors, not just 2 and 5. That's why dozens stuck as a counting unit on so many things, namely time (all the way back from Egyptians). You can even count using your fingers. Just count using your thumb pointing at each of the finger joints and the finger tip (you have two joints and one tip per finger an…

I've done some extensive analysis of number systems (almost enough to write a book on the subject) and come to the conclusion that the best are senary (6) and quaternary (4). Six has all the benefits of twelve, save the extra divisor of 2 (and thus 4), but that is easily remedied by use of the square (36) when required. Quaternary may seem an odd choice, but the square is 16, so one naturally learns hexadecimal witho…

Interesting. I always thought base 16 was the only suitable number system. Base 2 is the only justifiable one, since base 1 is not much fun. Squaring base 2 twice to get a fair amount of information in a single column seems to just make sense. What are the downsides of 16?

Re: Paper sizes

#190

A comical yet accurate take on why A4 is the best paper size : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb9EsAD2jGQ . You'll enjoy this. The tone is great as well.

Yeah, funny how this video was on Reddit's frontpage a few days ago, and this dude just happens to write a blog post about it without even mentioning the video.
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