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Why animals eat psychoactive plants

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Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right that the generic story isn't really attached to statistical data that would make it meaningful. However, if you want specifics on the story, it's my mother in law. She could either pay the rent or buy alcohol. She purchased alcohol and was evicted form her home. Living homeless in the park, she and her children didn't eat for two days. When she received money, she decided to continue forgoing food to spe…

> The only catch was that she'd have to remain sober. She preferred the alcohol. This is a cruel joke that gets played on drunks. She didn't prefer the alcohol, she was/is addicted; and our society deals with addiction in probably the worst possible way. They may as well have asked her to jump over the moon. Rational people don't do that to themselves or their families. I didn't say that these things never happen. I…

My apologies: I wrote that post in a fit of anger and I wasn't careful in how I spoke.

You're absolutely right that the choice she was presented with was no choice at all. She prefered alcohol over housing in the same way that Stephen Hawking prefers sitting over walking. That was the point that I was trying to make - there are people who cannot make rational decisions on these matters.

As for the drug war, my wife has tens of thousands of dollars of medical debt because some bureaucrat decided that it's more important that my mother-in-law be punished for being an alcoholic than that a child might have a warm place to sleep at night. Punishing addicts makes as much sense as punishing cancer patients.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

David E.H. Jones pointed out that the socially sanctioned drugs have something in common: they all taste bad. Or at least, they have a taste that is unappealing to children, and then must be acquired by special effort. Coffee, tea, tobacco, alcohol: all taste pretty awful to a ten-year-old.

> David E.H. Jones pointed out that the socially sanctioned drugs have something in common: they all taste bad. Or at least, they have a taste that is unappealing to children, and then must be acquired by special effort. Coffee, tea, tobacco, alcohol: all taste pretty awful to a ten-year-old. That's certainly not true of all of the popular forms in which those (particularly alcohol and caffeine) are consumed by adult…

Coffee, tea, tobacco and alcohol are all "raw" products. Coca Cola was engineered to taste good. If all drugs were legalized I'm sure we'd get some excellent space cookies or strawberry flavored psylocibe products.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#123
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you see it this way, it's hard to stand in line at Starbucks and think "I'm not an addict." Everyone and their mother is addicted to something, it's just a matter of whether or not the authorities approve of your choice of substance. Truth is we're humans and humans seek to alter their consciousness whether it be through meditation, prayer, exercise, spinning in circles or a through a shortcut -- a substance. Un…

More and more, I don't see addicts; I see people self-medicating for undiagnosed neurochemical imbalances. Alcoholics are frequently people who don't realize they have anxiety disorders, and think they need alcohol to be calm. People who drink cup after cup of coffee/soda because it helps them to "focus" and "be productive" might do well with being tested for ADD. People with undiagnosed clinical depression get hooke…

I think I maybe have ADHD, (not just ADD), but medics REFUSE to even TRY to diagnose me, because of all the ADHD drugs abuse by students and obese people (in my country, Adderall actually entered the list of illegal drugs, because of its abuse to 'cure' obesity).

Saturday, while trying to finish a task for my startup, I took LOADS of caffeine, and it didn't work.

I suspected I might be addicted, and tried yesterday to not touch anything with caffeine.

Had horrible withdraw symptoms :(

And still can't work properly (I work in random spurts, usually I work more if it is a new or interesting task)

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#124
post #83
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why say undiagnosed? Maybe we ha've been and just prefer something less. Caffiene is easier on the body and mind than amphetamines.

People who have been diagnosed with something, and then pursue alternative lines of therapy, usually manage to use those alternative therapies responsibly, because they are actually thinking of them using the mental framing of "treatment for condition" rather than "fun recreational substance I seem to enjoy even more than other people." A lot of recreational drugs are fine if approached in a medical context. Amphetam…

> People who have been diagnosed with something, and then pursue alternative lines of therapy, usually manage to use those alternative therapies responsibly, because they are actually thinking of them using the mental framing of "treatment for condition" rather than "fun recreational substance I seem to enjoy even more than other people."

Are you sure? Prescription drug abuse is rampant. And in my experience, most of these people do legitimately need the drugs they're abusing - but they also see them as "fun recreational substances." I've noticed this seems to be especially true for anti-anxiety medications and painkillers. People take them to treat their conditions and to enjoy the way the abuse of it makes them feel. I think the fact it's a legitimate prescription makes it "okay" since in their minds they need it and there's no harm in taking extra because of that.

Of course, then they run out of their prescription before they can refill it and then there's some miserable days (or shady transactions) ahead.

I'm speaking from extensive experience in Mississippi. Maybe it's different in wealthier places. I do get the sense those are are better off tend to adhere more to the correct dosing schedule, but I have no idea how to begin untangling cause-and-effect there.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a situation where coffee would be banned, we would in all likeliness see a rise in coffee smuggling, a drop in quality of coffee, and coffee addicts would face problem due to the illegality of the stuff More likely if caffeine were banned. If coffee were banned, those with a dependence (which is most likely on caffeine, not coffee) would substitute other sources. Like tea. Or soda. (People might smuggle coffee if i…

> (People might smuggle coffee if it were banned, the way they smuggle Cuban cigars into the US, but as a prohibited luxury rather than an item of dependence that there was no legal means to fulfill.) You do realize that caffeine is more addictive than cannibas right? If there is an illegal drug trade for that pot then I can't imagine people would just give up on coffee when it's harder to kick.

It is more physically addictive, at least. I'm not so sure about psychologically.

Withdrawal from physical dependency of high doses of caffeine is decidedly unpleasant (with the potential for week long bouts of diarrhea, night sweats, uncontrollable shaking, fever and massive headaches, for example - from personal experience after going of pre-workout supplements with doses in the 400mg+ range of caffeine)

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#126
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad you've never had anyone in your life with a drug addiction. It is clearly something from which you have been withdrawn. Try your best to empathize with the people who match the clinical description of substance addiction as defined by the DSM. This isn't something about which people are simply exaggerating.

>I'm glad you've never had anyone in your life with a drug addiction. It is clearly something from which you have been withdrawn. Thanks, but that's not what I said, you're mistaken on that account. >This isn't something about which people are simply exaggerating. The stories don't need exaggeration. My response, and what I find offensive about these stories' use in pro-drug war propaganda, is that they are being use…

OK, we agree then! Clearly a heated subject. I've encountered numerous people that equate addiction to routine, and that was what I was speaking out against. My apologies.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#127
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More and more, I don't see addicts; I see people self-medicating for undiagnosed neurochemical imbalances. Alcoholics are frequently people who don't realize they have anxiety disorders, and think they need alcohol to be calm. People who drink cup after cup of coffee/soda because it helps them to "focus" and "be productive" might do well with being tested for ADD. People with undiagnosed clinical depression get hooke…

I think I maybe have ADHD, (not just ADD), but medics REFUSE to even TRY to diagnose me, because of all the ADHD drugs abuse by students and obese people (in my country, Adderall actually entered the list of illegal drugs, because of its abuse to 'cure' obesity). Saturday, while trying to finish a task for my startup, I took LOADS of caffeine, and it didn't work. I suspected I might be addicted, and tried yesterday t…

Try to kick out simple carbs (mainly sugar) from your diet, sleep well and start doing aerobic exercises like running, cycling, swimming. A lot of people reported improvement in their state - seems like exercise and better diet help balancing some neurotransmitter-related problems. Maybe you will be amongst the lucky ones that can fix it that way.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#128
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you see it this way, it's hard to stand in line at Starbucks and think "I'm not an addict." Everyone and their mother is addicted to something, it's just a matter of whether or not the authorities approve of your choice of substance. Truth is we're humans and humans seek to alter their consciousness whether it be through meditation, prayer, exercise, spinning in circles or a through a shortcut -- a substance. Un…

> Once you see it this way, it's hard to stand in line at Starbucks and think "I'm not an addict." Except "addict" is a loaded term, which implies... well, unequivocally maladaptive behavior. You seldom hear about people who lie to their loved ones about their hidden coffee stash, or steal from their child's piggybank to sustain their caffeine fix.

>> You seldom hear about people who lie to their loved ones about their hidden coffee stash, or steal from their child's piggybank to sustain their caffeine fix.

Actually, this brings up an perfect example of the first poster's point. Smoking cigarettes was socially acceptable at one point. Now, it's considered a bad, unhealthy habit. I've known quite a of people who hide, or attempt to hide, their habit from their friends. And I'm quite sure that a good number of parents have taken money from their kids piggybanks to buy cigarettes.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#129

I’ve always found it fascinating that people don’t perceive socially sanctioned drugs as drugs at all. Saying “drugs and alcohol” to me is like saying “sandwiches and hamburgers”. A person can drink a cup of coffee in the morning, smoke a cigarette on their lunch break, and drink a couple glasses of wine in the evening, and the only thing that keeps them from being called a “drug addict” is that these particular drug…

David E.H. Jones pointed out that the socially sanctioned drugs have something in common: they all taste bad. Or at least, they have a taste that is unappealing to children, and then must be acquired by special effort. Coffee, tea, tobacco, alcohol: all taste pretty awful to a ten-year-old.

Plenty of alcopops / cocktails that will taste fine to a kid.

Re: Why animals eat psychoactive plants

#130
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> David E.H. Jones pointed out that the socially sanctioned drugs have something in common: they all taste bad. Or at least, they have a taste that is unappealing to children, and then must be acquired by special effort. Coffee, tea, tobacco, alcohol: all taste pretty awful to a ten-year-old. That's certainly not true of all of the popular forms in which those (particularly alcohol and caffeine) are consumed by adult…

Coffee, tea, tobacco and alcohol are all "raw" products. Coca Cola was engineered to taste good. If all drugs were legalized I'm sure we'd get some excellent space cookies or strawberry flavored psylocibe products.

No, alcohol isn't a raw product, not even relative to the popular forms in which it is consumed.
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