They ought to hold IBM responsible for Facilitating the Holocaust as well...
EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid
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Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid
#12Okay, while we're at it let's sue Intel for providing a platform to enable digital crimes, CERN for developing a copyright circumvention mechanism, oh and how about we sue Maybach for proving engines for the Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger Ausf.E and therefore enabling Hitler to start a World War. This is just ridiculous, nobody holds the developers of Little Boy responsible, instead we should hold the people and governmen…
If you build a tool _for explicit illegal purposes_, ... well that's not really the same as building tools that can be used for illegal purposes, is it?
Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid
#13This is pretty sweet. Given that corporations are people these days, I guess they can be charged with knowingly facilitating war crimes?
One does not even need jurisdiction in order to try someone for war crimes. The Kuala Lampur War Crimes Commission tried and convicted George W. Bush and Tony Blair for "crimes against peace" in 2011 under the principle of universal jurisdiction. Their sentence was to be entered into a register of war criminals to be published worldwide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_Lumpur_War_Crimes_Commiss...
The other guy said it more cynically, but how does this "trial" hold any weight? A backwater nation, trial held in absentia.. doesn't seem very legitimate, yknow?
Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid
#14Be careful; "facilitating a human rights violation" is very, very close to the rationale that France et al use to penalize entities like Twitter for "facilitating hate speech". The UN in particular is an incredibly illiberal organization, and their definition of a "human rights violation" encompasses a hell of a lot.
Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid
#15For those who might want a fuller description of IBM's active facilitation of these kinds of crimes, you should read Edwin Black's book, "IBM and the Holocaust". Those tattoo's on Holocaust victim's arms? They were serial numbers directly tied to IBM punchcards designed by IBM for the Third Reich. It gives context to former NSA chief Michael Hayden's comment, "We kill people with metadata".
To clarify, the scenario isn't that the Nazis just picked up existing technology-- They had to have direct dealings with IBM for the scope and implementation of the process, which was largely involved with sorting census data to figure out who the Jews and other targeted ethnicities were, shipping them to various concentration camps, and determining where and how to "exhaust" these resources. Just imagine being one of the programmers tasked with that.
The book details how Thomas Watson was directly involved in all this, and when the US made Nazi dealings illegal, he handed over direct control of his Nazi business to local branches instead of halting the relationship. After the war, those local branches all rejoined greater IBM.
It's kind of crazy to see how IBM has avoided scrutiny and continues to celebrate Watson through their naming conventions.
Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid
#16Okay, while we're at it let's sue Intel for providing a platform to enable digital crimes, CERN for developing a copyright circumvention mechanism, oh and how about we sue Maybach for proving engines for the Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger Ausf.E and therefore enabling Hitler to start a World War. This is just ridiculous, nobody holds the developers of Little Boy responsible, instead we should hold the people and governmen…
If you build a tool _for explicit illegal purposes_, ... well that's not really the same as building tools that can be used for illegal purposes, is it?
What's legal today might be illegal tomorrow.
And even the question of legality is hugely dependent on location.
Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid
#17i'm sorry but this is utterly ridiculous.
IBM is a company, an entity. it is made of people, but it is not a person (although americans might try to disagree..). it is a paper-clip maximiser, only instead of paperclips, it's cash.
it does not have morals, it does not have a conscience, irrelevant of the fact that the people that make it up do. to blame a company for doing exactly what it was made to do is madness.
if IBM didn't do it, another company would have done it. IBM could have failed, in fact, as a result. or at least, they might not be in the position they are now.
you may be tempted to argue that, morally, IBM should have not agreed to take part, regardless of the effect on the company. you wouldn't be entirely wrong. but a company does not have morals. not having morals is what allows them to make such vast amounts of profits.
when health insurance companies fight to the death (sometimes literally) to avoid paying out claims, where is this moral outrage? or when BP do literally whatever they want to environment, where does the outrage dissipate to after the media gets bored of talking about it?
we can not expect companies to be moral agents. we can not expect them to value human life over cash. to punish an entity with no conscience makes no sense. it would be akin to shouting at the wind for blowing, or kicking a hatstand for falling over.
the best we can hope to do is stop companies from engaging in "immoral" behaviour (whatever that means - they change over time) whilst they are committing it.
otherwise, lets start legal action with hugo boss for constructing nazi uniforms. or VW (literally, the "peoples car") for working with nazi germany.
Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid
#18I think the writing on the wall is this: we're all in some database, somewhere, which can be used to exterminate us from the face of the planet.
Someone gets into power, they don't like those 'upstart hackers' .. well then, HN seems like a pretty good resource for who goes up against the wall, then ..
Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you build a tool _for explicit illegal purposes_, ... well that's not really the same as building tools that can be used for illegal purposes, is it?
What's legal today might be illegal tomorrow. And even the question of legality is hugely dependent on location.
Apartheid has been illegal the whole time.
Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid
#20Okay, while we're at it let's sue Intel for providing a platform to enable digital crimes, CERN for developing a copyright circumvention mechanism, oh and how about we sue Maybach for proving engines for the Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger Ausf.E and therefore enabling Hitler to start a World War. This is just ridiculous, nobody holds the developers of Little Boy responsible, instead we should hold the people and governmen…
It sounds like you didn't read the article, they dedicated the third paragraph explaining why it isn't the case of simply going after general-purpose technology that could be used.