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Banks Paid $32.6B in Bonuses Amid U.S. Bailout (2009)

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21–30 of 168 posts

Re: Banks Paid $32.6B in Bonuses Amid U.S. Bailout (2009)

#21
post #4

>“When the banks did well, their employees were paid well. When the banks did poorly, their employees were paid well,” Cuomo’s office said in the 22-page report. “When the banks did very poorly, they were bailed out by taxpayers and their employees were still paid well. Bonuses and overall compensation did not vary significantly as profits diminished.” Waaat. I think the government should stop bailing out businesses.…

I don't mean to detract from your point, but you have to keep in mind the fact that those were loans, and the government actually made money on those loans (AFAIK). Also, if the damage to the economy would be greater than the taxpayer loss of the bail-outs, they still make sense, as long as they are accompanied by legislation that makes hem less likely in the future (which, sadly, hasn't happened yet).

> Also I clearly need a job in banking...

If you want to become a good cook, get a cooking job. If you want to earn good money, get a money (banking) job :)

Re: Banks Paid $32.6B in Bonuses Amid U.S. Bailout (2009)

#22
At the time these banks were claiming that they had to pay the bonuses to retain these employees ... I think this is logically false for two reasons:

1) Why do you want to retain the executive that helped run the business into the ground?

2) What other corporation in their right (collective?) mind would hire one of these executives (given their inflated salaries and poor performance).

I still think the right way to fix this would have been to send those who propagated the whole financial scam to jail.

Re: Banks Paid $32.6B in Bonuses Amid U.S. Bailout (2009)

#23
post #22

At the time these banks were claiming that they had to pay the bonuses to retain these employees ... I think this is logically false for two reasons: 1) Why do you want to retain the executive that helped run the business into the ground? 2) What other corporation in their right (collective?) mind would hire one of these executives (given their inflated salaries and poor performance). I still think the right way to f…

Also, the job market for bankers was pretty bad circa 2009 so I am sure bankers would have held up a year or two until business bounced back again. Everyone in the banking industry knew that 2008/2009/2010 were going to be bad years so bonus expectations were low. Bankers/traders find loopholes and opportunities in systems (stock market, real estate, etc.) and exploit them for profit. Of course any poorly orchestrated bailout was going to end in this.

Re: Banks Paid $32.6B in Bonuses Amid U.S. Bailout (2009)

#24
post #21
post #4

>“When the banks did well, their employees were paid well. When the banks did poorly, their employees were paid well,” Cuomo’s office said in the 22-page report. “When the banks did very poorly, they were bailed out by taxpayers and their employees were still paid well. Bonuses and overall compensation did not vary significantly as profits diminished.” Waaat. I think the government should stop bailing out businesses.…

I don't mean to detract from your point, but you have to keep in mind the fact that those were loans, and the government actually made money on those loans (AFAIK). Also, if the damage to the economy would be greater than the taxpayer loss of the bail-outs, they still make sense, as long as they are accompanied by legislation that makes hem less likely in the future (which, sadly, hasn't happened yet). > Also I clear…

>the government actually made money on those loans (AFAIK).

Nope. Explanation here:

http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/2587.html

Cash is not king in financial markets. Risk is. The government bailed out major banks by assuming the downside risk of major banks when those risks were very large, for minimal compensation. In particular, the government 1) offered regulatory forbearance and tolerated generous valuations; 2) lent to financial institutions at or near risk-free interest rates against sketchy collateral (directly or via guarantee); 3) purchased preferred shares at modest dividend rates under TARP; 4) publicly certified the banks with stress tests and stated “no new Lehmans”. By these actions, the state assumed substantially all of the downside risk of the banking system. The market value of this risk-assumption by the government was more than the entire value of the major banks to their “private shareholders”. On commercial terms, the government paid for and ought to have owned several large banks lock, stock, and barrel. Instead, officials carefully engineered deals to avoid ownership and control.

...

After assuming the banking system’s downside risk, the US government engineered a wide variety of favorable circumstances that helped banks “earn” their way back to quasi-health. The government provided famous and obvious transfers like unwinding AIG swaps at 100¢ on the dollar. It forced short-term yields to zero and created an environment in which medium-term interest rates would be capped for several years, granting banks a near-risk-free arbitrage for a while. It emitted trillions in excess reserves on which it continues to pay interest. It forewent investigations and prosecutions that by law it should actively pursue, and settled what enforcement it could not avoid for token fees. Then there are the things conspiracy theorists and cranks like me suspect but cannot prove: that the government and the Fed have been less than aggressive in minimizing their costs when they or entities they control (AIG, Fannie, Freddie) transact with large banks, that they have left money on the table where doing so could be hidden in arcane accounts or justified as ordinary transaction expenses and trading losses. Large banks have enjoyed some rather extraordinary results for allegedly efficient markets, quarters with large trading profits and no or very few losing days. Government housing policy is pretty overtly subject to a constraint that interventions must not provoke loss realizations for banks carrying bad loans at inflated values, or interfere with servicing revenues. (If you think I am overconspiratorial, I’m still waiting for an innocent explanation of this, from 1991.)

Re: Banks Paid $32.6B in Bonuses Amid U.S. Bailout (2009)

#25
post #21
post #4

>“When the banks did well, their employees were paid well. When the banks did poorly, their employees were paid well,” Cuomo’s office said in the 22-page report. “When the banks did very poorly, they were bailed out by taxpayers and their employees were still paid well. Bonuses and overall compensation did not vary significantly as profits diminished.” Waaat. I think the government should stop bailing out businesses.…

I don't mean to detract from your point, but you have to keep in mind the fact that those were loans, and the government actually made money on those loans (AFAIK). Also, if the damage to the economy would be greater than the taxpayer loss of the bail-outs, they still make sense, as long as they are accompanied by legislation that makes hem less likely in the future (which, sadly, hasn't happened yet). > Also I clear…

Yeah, but when the bank needs loans to stay in business it shouldn't be paying out bonuses. Particularly so if the government (i.e. taxpayers/us) went through giant efforts and took a significant amount of risk to hand out these 'loans'.

EDIT: I believe that the bailout was needed and it did (IMO) prevent significant negative ripples from flowing through our financial system. What I really despise is the lack of discipline and regulatory oversight during the bailout process. This left a very sour taste in many struggling Americans and demonstrated that our political structures are incapable of focused, regulated, and disciplined action.

Re: Banks Paid $32.6B in Bonuses Amid U.S. Bailout (2009)

#26
post #21
post #4

>“When the banks did well, their employees were paid well. When the banks did poorly, their employees were paid well,” Cuomo’s office said in the 22-page report. “When the banks did very poorly, they were bailed out by taxpayers and their employees were still paid well. Bonuses and overall compensation did not vary significantly as profits diminished.” Waaat. I think the government should stop bailing out businesses.…

I don't mean to detract from your point, but you have to keep in mind the fact that those were loans, and the government actually made money on those loans (AFAIK). Also, if the damage to the economy would be greater than the taxpayer loss of the bail-outs, they still make sense, as long as they are accompanied by legislation that makes hem less likely in the future (which, sadly, hasn't happened yet). > Also I clear…

Also, the payment of "bonuses" in the banking industry are essentially an extension of salary. It's not what you'd typically think of as a bonus for hard work during the year. Bonuses are often pre-negotiated and pre-determined, just like a salary is.

Re: Banks Paid $32.6B in Bonuses Amid U.S. Bailout (2009)

#27
post #11
post #4

>“When the banks did well, their employees were paid well. When the banks did poorly, their employees were paid well,” Cuomo’s office said in the 22-page report. “When the banks did very poorly, they were bailed out by taxpayers and their employees were still paid well. Bonuses and overall compensation did not vary significantly as profits diminished.” Waaat. I think the government should stop bailing out businesses.…

This is an excellent point. I would put a system in place that makes it clear that banks have a choice of a) Splitting before they get to big to fail or b) Accepting that if they grow larger, they can always be nationalized if they make a mistake that would cause them to go bankrupt. The problem is, that currently nationalization is only possible in most countries, if you fully pay the owner. Changing this would in s…

Calomiris and Haber ("Fragile By Design") have run the natural experiment between the U.S. and Canada over the 2008 bubble period. The conclusion is the opposite of yours - Canada really just has the one bank, and sailed right through the crisis because they didn't hold as many rotten mortgages.

And in a way, the big banks are effectively nationalized in the U.S. We do maintain parallel governance structures because fully nationalized banks ( like the Bank of England in Britain's Mercantilist heyday ) are ... well, mercantilist.

Re: Banks Paid $32.6B in Bonuses Amid U.S. Bailout (2009)

#28
post #6
post #4

>“When the banks did well, their employees were paid well. When the banks did poorly, their employees were paid well,” Cuomo’s office said in the 22-page report. “When the banks did very poorly, they were bailed out by taxpayers and their employees were still paid well. Bonuses and overall compensation did not vary significantly as profits diminished.” Waaat. I think the government should stop bailing out businesses.…

> Either you let the company go bankrupt or you nationalize. I vaguely agree with that sentiment, but the problem in practice is that government sucks at running things. They introduce layers of infrastructure that business doesn't and turn things into political footballs. Although thinking about that for a moment, its a big problem on its own...

>I vaguely agree with that sentiment, but the problem in practice is that government sucks at running things.

The government could be no worse than a management team that has already proven its dedication to running the company into the ground.

Re: Banks Paid $32.6B in Bonuses Amid U.S. Bailout (2009)

#29
post #22

At the time these banks were claiming that they had to pay the bonuses to retain these employees ... I think this is logically false for two reasons: 1) Why do you want to retain the executive that helped run the business into the ground? 2) What other corporation in their right (collective?) mind would hire one of these executives (given their inflated salaries and poor performance). I still think the right way to f…

Unless I'm mistaken it is not like the people handing out bonuses and the people who screwed up are completely separate. Also it is safe to assume that any organization of a sufficiently large size will have a fixed amount of incompetent people at any level, simply as a matter of statistics. Maybe the percentage will be less where the people come from field with a (different/harder) selection process like the natural sciences/law/medicine as opposed to business administration. The banking crisis also seems more of an institutional / regulatory failure than a failure of individuals.

The pseudo-democratization of credit availability was something explicitly wanted by the government as a means of stimulating consumption. That this policy was completely misguided wasn't really the fault of the banks themselves who mainly took advantage of the admittedly ridiculous situation.

Re: Banks Paid $32.6B in Bonuses Amid U.S. Bailout (2009)

#30
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to detract from your point, but you have to keep in mind the fact that those were loans, and the government actually made money on those loans (AFAIK). Also, if the damage to the economy would be greater than the taxpayer loss of the bail-outs, they still make sense, as long as they are accompanied by legislation that makes hem less likely in the future (which, sadly, hasn't happened yet). > Also I clear…

Also, the payment of "bonuses" in the banking industry are essentially an extension of salary. It's not what you'd typically think of as a bonus for hard work during the year. Bonuses are often pre-negotiated and pre-determined, just like a salary is.

Are you referring to investment banking/trading/PE or what? This is definitely not true in IB or trading. Your bonus is a direct function of what you make. This is particularly true for even more senior partners in IB/trading firms. The rainmakers make significantly more money than 'operating' or 'non-money-making' partners.
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