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Explore the Swiss Leaks Data

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Re: Explore the Swiss Leaks Data

#21
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why so few prosecuted in Britain? Wouldn't this be a good opportunity to get some assholes who thought they could shift the tax burden to others? Six month prison sentences sounds reasonable. British prisons suck, but given that this is partly the dodgers fault that's just poetic.

What would be the value in it? Justice? What does that mean? Punishment? Or to send a warning? Would that really be effective? What would be the cost? Was there anybody in the pot that was expendable, economically?

>Or to send a warning? Would that really be effective?

Yes. A lot of tax evaders who wouldn't even blink at a potential $500k fine would not take any risks if the were faced with real jail time. That means more tax revenue.

Re: Explore the Swiss Leaks Data

#22
The pattern is apparent - once you become rich, you don't want to donate millions to governments in taxes. Anyway you do, but trying to minimize it. Be it for their lack of any transparency how cash will be used (mostly wasted in very ineffective way). It doesn't matter if it's famous or unknown rich.

Now what to do with this situation... There are too many tax havens out there (Suisse, Monaco, Channel islands, Luxemburg, Malta etc. - this is just good ol' europe). There will always be rich, powerful people no matter what system you come up with (sheep/wolf human nature responsible here). If you tax them too much, they will flee (ie Tina Turner) and you lose all the money for good. Those are clever people, having best financial advisors out there.

Heck, if I had hard earned/inherited millions or more, I wouldn't want to support some war efforts/failing eu social policies either. If feeling generous, you can always give back more directly ie by building some school, avoiding bureaucrats that eat away most of cash. YOu know, the richest man in the world style. There is a good reason why he didn't donate all his money to something existing, but managing investments by himself (maybe not exact description, but you get the point).

All in all, nothing new...

Re: Explore the Swiss Leaks Data

#23

Looks worthless, only selected people who they think are worthy enough to publish. Why not all the names or raw data?

The raw data contains phone numbers, adresses and other personal data (source http://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2015/02/09/qui-s... ). I can see why it's not published as is.

Re: Explore the Swiss Leaks Data

#24
post #12
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the Hervé Falciani leak. See the Guardian coverage: http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/08/hsbc-files-e... The origin of the leak The HSBC files were obtained through an international collaboration of news outlets, including the Guardian, Le Monde, BBC Panorama and the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists 1 In late 2007, Hervé Falciani, an IT expert at HSBC's Swiss bank, hacked into it…

Why so few prosecuted in Britain? Wouldn't this be a good opportunity to get some assholes who thought they could shift the tax burden to others? Six month prison sentences sounds reasonable. British prisons suck, but given that this is partly the dodgers fault that's just poetic.

> Wouldn't this be a good opportunity to get some assholes

It would, if there was an actual will to "get some assholes" in the first place.

As reported by Private Eye several years ago, as soon as the current government got into power, several outstanding (and huge) tax-dodging cases were quietly settled, largely in favour of such dodgers. Once called on it, they reshuffled a couple of appointees and said it wouldn't happen again. I wouldn't be surprised to find the new bosses were told to put this list in the wrong drawer and accidentally forget about it entirely.

The previous government would have probably used the list for a fundraising round - if you can sell peerages, you might as well sell pardons. The next government will likely replace a few appointees here and there, and if pressed they will claim cases are too old to be efficiently investigated, it was all the previous guys' fault, etc etc.

Re: Explore the Swiss Leaks Data

#25
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why so few prosecuted in Britain? Wouldn't this be a good opportunity to get some assholes who thought they could shift the tax burden to others? Six month prison sentences sounds reasonable. British prisons suck, but given that this is partly the dodgers fault that's just poetic.

Or how about you let the authorities deal with it in a reasonable, case by case basis and get off your polemic high horse

Is it "polemic" now to expect that people pay taxes, and get punished when they try to cheat their way out of it?

Re: Explore the Swiss Leaks Data

#26

The pattern is apparent - once you become rich, you don't want to donate millions to governments in taxes. Anyway you do, but trying to minimize it. Be it for their lack of any transparency how cash will be used (mostly wasted in very ineffective way). It doesn't matter if it's famous or unknown rich. Now what to do with this situation... There are too many tax havens out there (Suisse, Monaco, Channel islands, Luxem…

Paying taxes is not "donating money". You are required by law to pay them. You get certain things in exchange, like laws that protect your property.

If you think that you shouldn't be forced to pay taxes, why do you think that other laws should be enforced? If rich people steal from the state, why shouldn't poor people just take what they want from the rich?

If you avoid taxes, you are stealing from everybody.

Re: Explore the Swiss Leaks Data

#27
post #20
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I recall, to get prosecuted for tax evasion in the UK, you need to not only commit the tax evasion, but also to lie to the HMRC investigation of the tax evasion, at the point where they ask you to sign a form that explicitly says that if you lie now and they find out, they will put you in jail. So unless you lie at that point, you will not be prosecuted, only investigated. This may let some tax dodgers off the hoo…

Protecting people from their own mistakes is fine, but they lost that defence once they put the money in secret swiss bank accounts. Secret. Swiss. Bank. Accounts. Might as well accidentally ask the local mafia to white wash some money while they twirl their mustaches.

Once you get into dealing with large amounts of money across the world, there's a lot of things that seem like they should be illegal that aren't.

While this case is probably rather clear-cut, most cases are not. The Government doesn't actually want to put people in jail (what problem would that solve?), unlike the US Government - it just wants its money. The law seems reasonable to get that.

Re: Explore the Swiss Leaks Data

#28

The pattern is apparent - once you become rich, you don't want to donate millions to governments in taxes. Anyway you do, but trying to minimize it. Be it for their lack of any transparency how cash will be used (mostly wasted in very ineffective way). It doesn't matter if it's famous or unknown rich. Now what to do with this situation... There are too many tax havens out there (Suisse, Monaco, Channel islands, Luxem…

Paying taxes is not "donating money". You are required by law to pay them. You get certain things in exchange, like laws that protect your property. If you think that you shouldn't be forced to pay taxes, why do you think that other laws should be enforced? If rich people steal from the state, why shouldn't poor people just take what they want from the rich? If you avoid taxes, you are stealing from everybody.

Nice textbook phrases, now let's get back to the real world out there for a while.

Do you even understand the simple truth, that most of the times no law is broken in tax optimalizations? Only when it does, it gets highly publitized. Usually, tax systems are full of loopholes and accountants just need to be creative enough (and yes, they are...). Without breaking any specific law, by logic "what is not explicitly forbidden is allowed".

Personally, I do believe in minimal and fair taxation. If you have system where successful people have over 50% tax burden (quite common in progressive tax systems), you can expect many attempts to get away from it. Just human nature. Your textbook phrases won't help much, do they.

Just look at Switzerland itself - most democratic country in the world, one of the richest (and their wealth ain't based on banking secrecy - whole banking industry brings roughly 12% into GDP... tourism and high quality exports are primes here). Low personal and corporate taxation, and the country and system just works. Why cannot rest of europe work this way? How much tax evasion is within Switzerand? Almost none...

Re: Explore the Swiss Leaks Data

#29
post #15
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why so few prosecuted in Britain? Wouldn't this be a good opportunity to get some assholes who thought they could shift the tax burden to others? Six month prison sentences sounds reasonable. British prisons suck, but given that this is partly the dodgers fault that's just poetic.

As I recall, to get prosecuted for tax evasion in the UK, you need to not only commit the tax evasion, but also to lie to the HMRC investigation of the tax evasion, at the point where they ask you to sign a form that explicitly says that if you lie now and they find out, they will put you in jail. So unless you lie at that point, you will not be prosecuted, only investigated. This may let some tax dodgers off the hoo…

Is that really true?! If so it seems that a winning strategy is to actively try to dodge the system but be prepared to pay it back when you know you'll get found out. That makes no sense.

Why would that same rule not apply to other crime?

Re: Explore the Swiss Leaks Data

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying taxes is not "donating money". You are required by law to pay them. You get certain things in exchange, like laws that protect your property. If you think that you shouldn't be forced to pay taxes, why do you think that other laws should be enforced? If rich people steal from the state, why shouldn't poor people just take what they want from the rich? If you avoid taxes, you are stealing from everybody.

Nice textbook phrases, now let's get back to the real world out there for a while. Do you even understand the simple truth, that most of the times no law is broken in tax optimalizations? Only when it does, it gets highly publitized. Usually, tax systems are full of loopholes and accountants just need to be creative enough (and yes, they are...). Without breaking any specific law, by logic "what is not explicitly for…

Nice textbook phrases. What does it matter whether laws are broken or not if the result is still people not paying their taxes while benefiting massively from society. If the best you can say about someone's behavior is that it's "not technically illegal", that's quite telling.

And don't get me started on Switzerland. I live there. I'm Swiss. We have massive tax evasion. We have special tax deals for foreign nationals living here.

Here in Zurich, where I live, the cantonal (state) finances are under huge strain because all the wealthy people live across the border in other cantons where the taxes are much lower, but commute into Zurich to work. So Zurich gets to pay for the infrastructure, for the poor who live here rather than across the border, etc.

So please don't talk about some imaginary Switzerland that supports your self-serving rhetoric.

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