Your close-minded disdain for anti-vaxxers isn't helping anyone
1–10 of 13 posts
Re: Your close-minded disdain for anti-vaxxers isn't helping anyone
#2I think it's a little unfair to lump vaccination with diet/fitness/nutrition. The best of the university crop don't exactly rush into that field, so it's no wonder it's perceived (and rightly so) as pseudoscience or "junk" as the article points out.
Re: Your close-minded disdain for anti-vaxxers isn't helping anyone
#3I think it's a little unfair to lump vaccination with diet/fitness/nutrition. The best of the university crop don't exactly rush into that field, so it's no wonder it's perceived (and rightly so) as pseudoscience or "junk" as the article points out.
Few studies on vaccinations are properly controlled for side effects or efficacy. And they mostly just compare their product to an older one and to vaccines for different diseases. Additionally, they are shielded from liability in the US.
Pharmaceutical companies have an atrocious record as far as product safety goes. I understand the theory of vaccines is sound but that hardly means anything when dealing with big pharma.
Re: Your close-minded disdain for anti-vaxxers isn't helping anyone
#4As an epidemiologist, what the author doesn't get is that we have been empathetic. We have been patient. We have explained, using everything from complex math to simple metaphor how vaccination works to protect populations. We have spent millions of dollars and person-hours of valuable research time chasing down the ghosts of anti-vaxx fantasy to make sure there's nothing to them. We have let VAERS become irrevocably contaminated with their crackpot reports, making it useless for its actual purpose.
We catered to their whims. Their shifting goalposts and their conspiracies. We refused their unethical study demands while listening to them malign those we could conduct.
We asked nicely. In the meantime, they propagate beliefs that endanger children.
That wears down empathy and patience after a few decades.
Re: Your close-minded disdain for anti-vaxxers isn't helping anyone
#5I think it's a little unfair to lump vaccination with diet/fitness/nutrition. The best of the university crop don't exactly rush into that field, so it's no wonder it's perceived (and rightly so) as pseudoscience or "junk" as the article points out.
Few studies on vaccinations are properly controlled for side effects or efficacy. And they mostly just compare their product to an older one and to vaccines for different diseases. Additionally, they are shielded from liability in the US. Pharmaceutical companies have an atrocious record as far as product safety goes. I understand the theory of vaccines is sound but that hardly means anything when dealing with big ph…
The studies I've worked on looking at side effects and efficacy of vaccines, and that several vaccines have been taken off the market because of product safety concerns will be surprised to hear this.
Re: Your close-minded disdain for anti-vaxxers isn't helping anyone
#6Earlier quoted context omitted.
Few studies on vaccinations are properly controlled for side effects or efficacy. And they mostly just compare their product to an older one and to vaccines for different diseases. Additionally, they are shielded from liability in the US. Pharmaceutical companies have an atrocious record as far as product safety goes. I understand the theory of vaccines is sound but that hardly means anything when dealing with big ph…
The studies I've worked on looking at side effects and efficacy of vaccines, and that several vaccines have been taken off the market because of product safety concerns will be surprised to hear this.
> several vaccines have been taken off the market
This is what I mean by atrocious record. Not with vaccines specifically, but looking across all medications.
Anyhow if you can point me to double-blind placebo controlled studies on all the major vaccines, please do.
Re: Your close-minded disdain for anti-vaxxers isn't helping anyone
#7Strident anti-antivax here.
The main sticking point that I have experienced is that anitvaxxers refuse to accept that their actions impact other people (children) by way of herd immunity.
When they do see it, they are often too deep into the argument to back out.
The other issue is that the argument is often heavily laden with emotion - I had a discussion with ageing hippy grandparents who blame a last minute MMR vaccine on the still birth of their second grandchild.
It's not a fair argument when you are showing data and they are reacting to a still birth. Even harder when you deeply love the people you are having the damned argument with.
Re: Your close-minded disdain for anti-vaxxers isn't helping anyone
#8As an epidemiologist, what the author doesn't get is that we have been empathetic. We have been patient. We have explained, using everything from complex math to simple metaphor how vaccination works to protect populations. We have spent millions of dollars and person-hours of valuable research time chasing down the ghosts of anti-vaxx fantasy to make sure there's nothing to them. We have let VAERS become irrevocably…
Wakefield was one of your own and VAERS takes reports from the medical community.
Vaccine rates are pretty high. If they're effective then they should be effective for the 90%+ people taking them.
Meanwhile Ebola with >50% mortality is raging and the medical community is up in arms over measles.
Re: Your close-minded disdain for anti-vaxxers isn't helping anyone
#9Earlier quoted context omitted.
The studies I've worked on looking at side effects and efficacy of vaccines, and that several vaccines have been taken off the market because of product safety concerns will be surprised to hear this.
> several vaccines have been taken off the market This is what I mean by atrocious record. Not with vaccines specifically, but looking across all medications. Anyhow if you can point me to double-blind placebo controlled studies on all the major vaccines, please do.
Vaccines are not like other medications. With many medications, there is a benefit only to one person. With vaccines, there are benefits to an entire society (especially those who are not healthy enough to take vaccines themselves).
We know that the highly recommended, widely used vaccines are safe. But even if they weren't, there should still be a higher tolerance of risk because the danger that they prevent is certain and extreme.
Re: Your close-minded disdain for anti-vaxxers isn't helping anyone
#10Earlier quoted context omitted.
The studies I've worked on looking at side effects and efficacy of vaccines, and that several vaccines have been taken off the market because of product safety concerns will be surprised to hear this.
> several vaccines have been taken off the market This is what I mean by atrocious record. Not with vaccines specifically, but looking across all medications. Anyhow if you can point me to double-blind placebo controlled studies on all the major vaccines, please do.
Two rotavirus vaccines were suspected of causing a rare but serious side effect (that they actually caused it at higher rates is somewhat less clear). They were immediately pulled off the market, and replaced with a vaccine that doesn't cause said side effect - which has been vigilantly monitored with post-market studies ever since.
A smattering of double-blind RCTs for you:
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00122681 (HPV) https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01266850 (Rotavirus) https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01171963 (also Rotavirus)
You'll find them relatively easily for novel vaccines. In another post I mention unethical studies. Asking for new RCTs for existing vaccines used to prevent childhood disease is absurdly unethical, and would never pass muster at any self-respecting institutional review board. The best you'll get is comparisons between new formulations and existing vaccines, ala https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00861744 because there's no reason to put a swath of children at risk of preventable childhood diseases when we have working vaccines with very little evidence of serious side effects.