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If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers

dawood.in

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Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers

#111

Post by jethro_tell »

jonahx wrote: post #108
jethro_tell wrote: post #85

Man this is the strangest thing to me. I used to be a carpenter. I would show up at your job site with my tools, you might ask me a couple questions, I've had guys ask me to lay out a wall or two off the prints. Call a reference to see if I show up to work. Then I get the job. Usually, doing something myself or my boss never had done before, and we would figure it out off the prints, and build it. I just go turned do…

In fairness, the analogy would be: carpentering job = 2 week programming contract job and in that case the expectations in the programming job would be more lax, and few people would care about your "passion for the company." Even controlling for that difference, I still think you make a good point. Though it's probably true for modern corporate business culture in general, and not specific to programming.

No. These are companies that I worked for for years at a time. That is not a correct analogy. I have been hired, and worked for 4 years based on a 10 minute conversation.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers

#112

Post by Iftheshoefits »

italophil wrote: post #38
stillsut wrote: post #17

This actually will happen if you speak with an HR rep for insurance predictive modelling: -So do you have experience with SAS? -Yes, but mostly I model in R. They are sister languages. -So how much SAS, how much R? -Mostly R as it is widely held to be a superior language -But SAS you can do more with! -Ahh, if Big-Famous-Tech-Company-X wanted to do stat modelling they use R, not SAS. Again, anyone who does statistica…

If they want SAS that is their choice. It's like asking a carpenter to built a cupboard and he answers: "I'd rather build a shelf, it will hold your dishes just as well."

No, it is not like that at all. It is like asking a Carpenter to build a cupboard and thinking he's unqualified for the job if he's only ever used Craftsman screwdrivers because that means he can't use Husky screwdrivers.

Its also like deciding to hire an HR guy based on what brands of keyboards or pens he's used.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers

#113

Post by V-2 »

This answer on Programmers Stack Exchange sums the problem up very nicely:

http://programmers.stackexchange.com/a/1847

> A common HR thing that drives me nuts when I'm job hunting: the implicit assumption that all coding skills are language-specific, that there is no software engineering expertise that transcends command sets. That ten years experience in Java and another five in Perl mean you'd be completely useless on a project that uses, say, C#.

> "Yes, there's a learning curve. But I've made harder transitions than this. I'll make you a deal, pay me 80% for the first month and at the end of that time if I'm not ... oh, wait, we're not actually having this conversation, because your HR monkey simply deleted my application."

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers

#114

Post by frostmatthew »

vonmoltke wrote: post #87
dsr_ wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, a carpenter who is asked to build a cabinet will start by asking you about what kind of cabinet you want, and a sketch on a whiteboard will work as well as anything else. Where is it going to go? How big should it be? What's the purpose? Is it going to be built-in, or standalone? What's your budget? Do you want doors, and if so do you want glass in them? Shelves? Drawers? Some combination? Are there exsting…

Two points: First, nobody expects a cabinetmaker to draw a to-scale, installation-quality blueprint on a whiteboard like many companies expect out of whiteboard coding exercises. Second, a cabinetmaker's portfolio will consist of multiple photographs of completed jobs. It will likely not include detailed specifications of the jobs or records indicating what specific parts of the jobs this cabinetmaker was responsible…

Regarding your first point it's extremely rare in my experience to have an interviewer expect perfect/compiable code when whiteboarding (nearly every whiteboarding exercise I've ever done has been prefaced with the interviewer explicitly stating this). They're looking for how you go about solving a problem, they don't care about missing semicolons.

As for your second point, just because the ability to easily "inspect the actual work done" is not practical in one profession doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered in a completely different profession where it is practical.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers

#115

Post by pargon »

They forgot to ask about the deeply theoretical questions that the carpenter wouldn't actually use at the job.

"Now could you whiteboard for me how a table saw is built?"

"I've never had to build a table saw."

"I just want to see how you think."

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers

#116

Post by blueatlas »

I came across this [1] job posting last week. Made me realize how ridiculous the knowledge and experience expected of a web developer has become. I particularly like bullet 6, "Team-oriented, flexible, and able to work in an ambiguous and/or changing work environment." Really?

[1] http://jobs.hbispace.com/web/95148/job_2-15.html?cacheBuster...

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers

#119

Post by [deleted] »

frostmatthew wrote: post #104
vog wrote: post #71

Original discussion to the original article posted by Jason Bock (which was merely copied by Dawood Sangameshwari without proper attribution [1]): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7819413 [1] There is some attribution a the bottom of the page, but it isn't proper. It contains neither the original author's name, nor is it a clickable link. It's just a plain text URL. Better than nothing, but still the most shabby…

At the top of http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/News/Item/7c334037d1a9437d9fa650... Bock says I didn't write this, so I can't take credit for it so I'm not sure failing to include his name or clickable link really qualifies as "shabby" attribution.

[deleted]

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers

#120

Post by frostmatthew »

spiralpolitik wrote: post #79
frostmatthew wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of whiteboarding isn't to "build" correct/functional code - it's to get an idea of your thought process and how you go about solving a problem. It's not perfect (and there are both advantages and disadvantages to using a computer instead of a whiteboard) but when done correctly it gives a lot more useful insight than sitting there asking questions about their past the whole time.

Which would be perfectly valid if software developers spent their entire day solving problems on the whiteboard. But we don't.

Imagine you were in charge of casting for your community theater's production of Hamlet. How would you decide who to cast?

I'm guessing you would find it sensible to hold auditions. Does an audition perfectly mimic what they would actually spend their time doing come showtime? No. There isn't an audience, the lighting and acoustics are different, nobody is wearing costumes, everyone is standing in the same place instead of moving around, people are reading from scripts instead of having lines memorized, etc.

The audition isn't intended to mirror a performance - it's intended to give some insight into how someone may perform. Likewise, whiteboarding isn't intended to replicate a typical day in the life of a software developer. It's intended to give a glimpse into how you solve problems.

As I said above, it's not perfect, but it's far more useful than hiring someone without any coding exercises and basing your decision just on how well they answer questions or what their background is. In fact the whole point of the post you're commenting on is to point out the foolishness of basing hiring decisions solely on having X years of experience in Y technology.

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