Live data from Hacker News

How Medium Is Building a New Kind of Company with No Managers

firstround.com

41–50 of 51 posts

Re: How Medium Is Building a New Kind of Company with No Managers

#41
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving managers titles that don't have the word "manager" in them doesn't mean that there aren't managers. Describing their responsibilities as being "mentor"-like rather than "managerial" doesn't mean they aren't, in fact, managing. The headline is rather explicitly stating that Medium is building a company with "no managers," and then the article goes on to describe some rather transparently bad attempts at euphemi…

The article doesn't do a great job conveying how Medium is actually structured. I can only speak to how it was a year and a half ago (when I left), but the difference between a system like Holacracy and a standard hierarchical organization is that a person in Holacracy might hold roles in many circles at the same time and those roles are relatively fluid. The whole point in a role is to define who has decision-making…

What you've described is a manager/supervisor->director->VP->SVP/C-Suite chain, but with different terms, (possibly) shorter tenure, and with a perhaps slightly more democratic allocation procedure.

It's a management structure, just billed as something else.

Re: How Medium Is Building a New Kind of Company with No Managers

#42
I'm not seeing a lot of comments describing first-hand experience with a holacratic system, so I'll jump in.

I was a developer at Moveline (which shuttered, sadly, this past December). Around the start of 2014, the company adopted holacracy as its organizational model; while there were certainly other valid reasons to do so, but I know that it was in part motivated by the fact that another Las Vegas-based company, Zappos, was also an adherent. Over the course of the year, in addition to writing code, I also served as the elected secretary for the dev team and facilitator of the GCC (General Company Circle; top-most level of the hierarchy), attended holacracy training courses, and coached people throughout the company about the mechanics of holacracy and how to make it work for them. Suffice it to say, I was pretty immersed, so I feel like I can represent how things played out at Moveline fairly accurately.

The up-front costs associated with shifting from a traditional structure to any other structure can be pretty massive; holacracy is no exception to that rule. Bigwigs from the official holacracy company (HolacracyOne) came onsite to give talks and run the first several meetings, which cost a decent chunk of change as well as taking time out of a busy startup's day. Teams and roles needed to be defined using the terminology and mechanics of holacracy. There were impacts here and there to scheduling, to communication systems, and to getting things done in general. Eventually, however, the ramp-up phase ended and we were able to experience holacracy in full.

As you might expect, there were established figures in the company who felt strong resistance to holacracy. Some of them held significant managerial power before the transition; others wanted a flatter, less formal approach. Those tensions came up fairly frequently in meetings and other conversations, and it created an atmosphere of not being quite satisfied with how things were being run (not that these people should have stifled their opinions, mind you). This problem was compounded when we entered a major growth phase, going from under 40 employees to over 100 in the span of a few months. New hires were unfamiliar with holacracy, necessitating additional training, but just as importantly they entered an environment where low-grade dissatisfaction with holacracy was palpable. If there's a lesson here, it's that adopting holacracy requires far more buy-in than you might expect. (For what it's worth, I'm not aware that anyone ever felt unable to voice their dissatisfaction at Moveline; we had a culture of open and honest talk, but identifying an issue isn't the same as solving it.)

A natural question to ask at this point is "What about backing out of holacracy?", to which I'd reply that it's easier said than done. Since a not-insignificant amount of effort goes into the initial setup, it's easy to fall prey to the sunk cost fallacy. The rationalization is reinforced by HolacracyOne, who clearly stated to us that most companies won't really be fully operational as holacratic organizations for at least six months. Actually, the tenets of holacracy itself reinforce the idea that you just have to keep pushing forward no matter how weird it may feel: the first setup step effectively tears down a bunch of preconceptions about corporate structure, and you won't really feel like you've gotten to the point where you can critique holacracy until you rebuild that structure.

The flexibility you get for achieving the new structure is touted as a feature, but the less marketable truth is that it's a double-edged sword. Holacracy is purposefully vague on where the authority for hiring, firing, and budgets will live. Lead Links aren't managers, but they are accountable for resource allocation that isn't defined elsewhere — and it's up to your company to figure out what limits are placed, who places the limits and how, what constitutes a "resource", and so forth. It's entirely possible for an employee to have zero roles — and it's up to your company to figure out whether that has any correlation to terminating employment, changing teams, hiring needs, and so forth. Furthermore, self-defining teams present an unfortunate opportunity for organizational thrashing; at Moveline, we saw major revisions to the structure around meta-org work (HR, facilities, finance, etc.) and our sales/support teams every few months. Those upheavals, while well-intentioned, degraded individual performance, disrupted internal communication, and fed back into the underlying dissatisfaction.

I haven't read The Tyranny of Structurelessness cited in many other comments, but from the title alone I am assuming that it's an accurate depiction.

That said, there is one thing that I feel like holacracy helped with significantly: the emphasis on well-defined decision-making. When teams stopped saying "We will get this done" and started routing tasks to specific individuals (who had an obligation to perform those tasks according to the roles they held), it was clear that the reduced ambiguity had a positive impact. The use of "we" has its place in an organization, of course, but "we" is just a code word for "not sure who" when it comes to planning specific, concrete work that needs to get done. If you're not careful, things can get a bit political when it comes to defining authority (at Moveline, this often related to holacratic "domains"), but I'd still consider the technique of specific task attribution as something I'd want to bring to future workplaces.

I'm happy to answer any other questions about my views on holacracy that HNers might have.

Re: How Medium Is Building a New Kind of Company with No Managers

#43
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth pointing out that the author was a Stalinist, and so thought the solution to the problem of hierarchies forming implicitly was to make those hierarchies explicit and enshrine them. The article describes a real problem; it speaks to my experience and the experiences of my comrades; but it offers no real solution and is essentially a defense of the status quo. It doesn't preclude a better solution.

Agree with your points. I find that posting the essay is still quite valuable, though - as an industry we are still enamored with the mythology of structurelessness. So yeah, her solutions may be pretty questionable, but IMO as an industry we're not even at the point of exploring solutions, considering that so much of our industry doesn't even acknowledge the problem exist. Until then it's useful to keep flogging the…

> "Until then it's useful to keep flogging the essay until people accept that yeah, this problem actually exists."

I fully agree, but I'm pleased to note that this is the first such 'management is dead' story where multiple commenters have given salient counterpoints (small company, no HR/PR disasters to date, who can fire you, etc), rather than jumping on the bandwaggon.

Re: How Medium Is Building a New Kind of Company with No Managers

#44
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with your points. I find that posting the essay is still quite valuable, though - as an industry we are still enamored with the mythology of structurelessness. So yeah, her solutions may be pretty questionable, but IMO as an industry we're not even at the point of exploring solutions, considering that so much of our industry doesn't even acknowledge the problem exist. Until then it's useful to keep flogging the…

Personally, I think that structurelessness is much more possible in "our industry" because it's so culturally, racially, sexually, and class homogeneous. It's worth noting that this article is about feminist activist groups, and not software companies. Software companies have both much more clearly defined goals and much better metrics of measuring their progress towards those goals than feminist activist groups do.…

> "Personally, I think that structurelessness is much more possible in 'our industry' because it's so culturally, racially, sexually, and class homogeneous ..."

Do you think this is a good thing? It is not.

Re: How Medium Is Building a New Kind of Company with No Managers

#45
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that Valve has horrific internal politics, though.

Possibly. But they produce pretty amazing stuff. And not just another CRUD webapp, or mobile app with nice UX.

That may be in spite of their internal arrangement rather than because of it. It's not something we can ever know.

Re: How Medium Is Building a New Kind of Company with No Managers

#46
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article doesn't do a great job conveying how Medium is actually structured. I can only speak to how it was a year and a half ago (when I left), but the difference between a system like Holacracy and a standard hierarchical organization is that a person in Holacracy might hold roles in many circles at the same time and those roles are relatively fluid. The whole point in a role is to define who has decision-making…

What you've described is a manager/supervisor->director->VP->SVP/C-Suite chain, but with different terms, (possibly) shorter tenure, and with a perhaps slightly more democratic allocation procedure. It's a management structure, just billed as something else.

Management of work, not management of people, that's the key thing. Yes there's a hierarchy of responsibilities, but individual people live many places in that hierarchy which is what makes it different.

Re: How Medium Is Building a New Kind of Company with No Managers

#47
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving managers titles that don't have the word "manager" in them doesn't mean that there aren't managers. Describing their responsibilities as being "mentor"-like rather than "managerial" doesn't mean they aren't, in fact, managing. The headline is rather explicitly stating that Medium is building a company with "no managers," and then the article goes on to describe some rather transparently bad attempts at euphemi…

The article doesn't do a great job conveying how Medium is actually structured. I can only speak to how it was a year and a half ago (when I left), but the difference between a system like Holacracy and a standard hierarchical organization is that a person in Holacracy might hold roles in many circles at the same time and those roles are relatively fluid. The whole point in a role is to define who has decision-making…

My impression from your comment is that there's still a chain of command, but different terminologies and durations. My prediction from this arrangement would be that - in time - you see the same people becoming 'decsion-makers' or 'lead-links' over and over again. In fact, one incentive might be to ensure that your own 'circle' continues to expand.

The main benefit I see is that incompetent links/managers wont last long, but it doesn't hinder the machiavellians (it's just another system to game).

Of course, this is the first time I've come across the concept of Holocracy so maybe something else mitigates the above.

Re: How Medium Is Building a New Kind of Company with No Managers

#48
post #42

I'm not seeing a lot of comments describing first-hand experience with a holacratic system, so I'll jump in. I was a developer at Moveline (which shuttered, sadly, this past December). Around the start of 2014, the company adopted holacracy as its organizational model; while there were certainly other valid reasons to do so, but I know that it was in part motivated by the fact that another Las Vegas-based company, Za…

> The up-front costs associated with shifting from a traditional structure to any other structure can be pretty massive; holacracy is no exception to that rule. Bigwigs from the official holacracy company (HolacracyOne) came onsite to give talks and run the first several meetings, which cost a decent chunk of change as well as taking time out of a busy startup's day. Teams and roles needed to be defined using the terminology and mechanics of holacracy. There were impacts here and there to scheduling, to communication systems, and to getting things done in general. Eventually, however, the ramp-up phase ended and we were able to experience holacracy in full.

My "Management Consulting Claptrap" red-flag just went up...

> A natural question to ask at this point is "What about backing out of holacracy?", to which I'd reply that it's easier said than done. Since a not-insignificant amount of effort goes into the initial setup, it's easy to fall prey to the sunk cost fallacy. The rationalization is reinforced by HolacracyOne, who clearly stated to us that most companies won't really be fully operational as holacratic organizations for at least six months. Actually, the tenets of holacracy itself reinforce the idea that you just have to keep pushing forward no matter how weird it may feel: the first setup step effectively tears down a bunch of preconceptions about corporate structure, and you won't really feel like you've gotten to the point where you can critique holacracy until you rebuild that structure.

...And this makes it sound like a cult - the same tactics as convincing people about The One True Path(tm)

Re: How Medium Is Building a New Kind of Company with No Managers

#49
post #31
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so this debate seems to be framed in terms of authoritarian bureaucracy vs. anarchy. But what about corporate governance that has formal structure and rules, but is governed in a democratic rather than authoritarian fashion? There are more than two dimensions to this. Structure does not necessitate top-down command, and vice versa.

You're talking about "participatory management". It was a fad in the 50s that comes up again from time to time. It sounds like a good idea, but it actually ends up increasing bureaucracy. There's a good article that discusses exactly what you're talking about here: http://www.maccoby.com/CHeckscher/Articles/LimitsPartMgmt.sh...

That essay is hilarious, it explains all these failures of companies doing participatory management half-assed, provides a few successful counterexamples of companies/divisions/plants that did it full-assed, and then concludes that the failures failed because they didn't take the changes far enough.

Re: How Medium Is Building a New Kind of Company with No Managers

#50
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read beyond the headline? Pulled from the article he talks about this and pin points two ideas behind making decisions: 1. "Make everything explicit — from vacation policies to decision makers in each area." 2. "Distribute decision-making power and discourage consensus seeking."

Could you refine point two more? I don't understand how you distribute decision making without consensus? In that scenario "leader" types would make the decisions for the group, right? And then it's not "distributed". I guess I don't understand that point.

My take was that "distribute" means everybody has some sort of decision making power, and the power to make all the decisions is not concentrated in hierarchical fashion. Those who wield the power to make a particular decision are then encouraged to make the decision themselves without garnering a consensus first.
Post reply on HN