FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality • Hacker News Board

Re: FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality

#401

Post by kindofanger » Thu, Feb 05, 2015, 5:31 AM UTC

alexryan wrote: post #364

frostirosti wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tom Wheeler has really outdone himself with this announcement. It'll apply to mobile networks as well! Turns out this dingo knows how to stand up for what's right! I know it's early but this is a great step forward.

Big mistake. Government regulation kills innovation. Do you really want the technology sector to end up looking like the healthcare system or the state run education system? Everything government touches turns to crap. To believe that government regulation with make anything better is not very intelligent.

Yes. The telecoms are government regulated, and they suck. Now the internet can be regulated likewise, and start to suck. Any time the government offers something, it expects much in return.

I'd rather have Google, et al, provide a market solution to this, by aggressively expanding Fiber without regulation, and laying down a secondary network to compete with Comcast/Time Warner. As it stands this is starting to look more and more like an attempt to maintain power for the traditional shitty telecoms, while also taking a slice out of Google's pie.

Re: FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality

#402

Post by ikeboy » Thu, Feb 05, 2015, 5:45 AM UTC

redler wrote: post #398

ikeboy wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you support the following proposal? I would: The FCC allows companies to throttle whatever they want, but requires all the data to be provided publicly, and they make press releases every so often specifying which companies throttle and which don't. That would solve your not knowing problem. In addition, in any location where a company is the sole provider, net neutrality applies, which would solve the problem…

In addition, in any location where a company is the sole provider, net neutrality applies, which would solve the problem of choices. You've floated this idea a few times here. How would you propose this rule apply in Manhattan, where the availability of a second ISP option can vary not only block by block, but building by building? I'm not sure if this is unique to New York City, but the choice to bring a supplier in…

Keep the law exactly as I proposed, and let provider deal with it. They might choose on their own to just offer NN in the whole area in places like that. The important thing is that it's voluntary.

Re: FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality

#403

Post by Dylan16807 » Thu, Feb 05, 2015, 5:47 AM UTC

cheald wrote: post #391

acdha wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, will this make it illegal for GoGo to block streaming video sites on airplanes during domestic flights? It should allow them to be consistent about it and rate-limit everyone evenly, which would have the same effect. The really interesting question would be what happens with their on-plan video systems – my understanding is that they cache a selection of videos on the plane which are pre-seeded to avoid cloggin…

> It should allow them to be consistent about it and rate-limit everyone evenly, which would have the same effect. That's an allocation of about 450kbit/sec (~56kb/sec) down per seat on a 737 assuming the plane is outfitted with GoGo's latest tech. Upload would be a tiny fraction of that. It's in everyone's interest to disallow high-throughput usage while permitting burstable high-bandwidth low-throughput usage. "Bri…

400kbit? That sounds like enough to let everyone stream, cool.

If you want bursting then tell the router to allow bursting. Such as a 15 second window on the throttling.

Re: FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality

#404

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Feb 05, 2015, 6:06 AM UTC

dreamdu5t wrote: post #390

usefulcat wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everything government touches turns to crap. By that extremely simplistic logic, we should have no laws at all.

By that logic, laws would be created by a free market in law (polycentric court system).

A "free market in law" is either (a) not a free market (as participation in a transaction is not fully voluntary for all participants), or (b) not law.

Most likely, both.

Re: FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality

#405

Post by ddispaltro » Thu, Feb 05, 2015, 6:30 AM UTC

lsaferite wrote: post #381

acdha wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, will this make it illegal for GoGo to block streaming video sites on airplanes during domestic flights? It should allow them to be consistent about it and rate-limit everyone evenly, which would have the same effect. The really interesting question would be what happens with their on-plan video systems – my understanding is that they cache a selection of videos on the plane which are pre-seeded to avoid cloggin…

Hah, why not have a Netflix OpenConnect box on the plane then? That would be... interesting.

This is actually kinda what united is doing with their in-flight entertainment system. It's a limited selection of movies that you can stream. I am assuming it doesn't need internet to stream them.

Re: FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality

#406

Post by NamTaf » Thu, Feb 05, 2015, 6:47 AM UTC

alexryan wrote: post #364

frostirosti wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tom Wheeler has really outdone himself with this announcement. It'll apply to mobile networks as well! Turns out this dingo knows how to stand up for what's right! I know it's early but this is a great step forward.

Big mistake. Government regulation kills innovation. Do you really want the technology sector to end up looking like the healthcare system or the state run education system? Everything government touches turns to crap. To believe that government regulation with make anything better is not very intelligent.

Yes, you really do. Just not the American versions of those things, because Americans screw those things up, not Government.

Look outside your country and those things are very good successes.

Re: FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality

#407

Post by Animats » Thu, Feb 05, 2015, 7:48 AM UTC

This is neutrality for big data sources only. "For example, there will be no rate regulation, no tariffs, no last-mile unbundling." This is a deal for Netflix and Google. It won't get you out from under AT&T forcing you to take their TV service to get their Internet service.

There was a time when you could rent a local loop from a regulated telco and have it connected to an independent Internet service provider. Remember independent DSL ISPs? I still have a connection through one, "Sonic.net". They no longer offer that to new customers.

Re: FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality

#408

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Feb 05, 2015, 7:49 AM UTC

[deleted]

Re: FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality

#409

Post by runeks » Thu, Feb 05, 2015, 8:37 AM UTC

warfangle wrote: post #84

rayiner wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Title II includes several sorts of provisions that apply to "common carriers" very similar to, e.g., how railroads were regulated back in the day. The government sets the prices for carriage (rate regulation), and carriers have to lobby the government to change prices (tariffs). Last-mile unbundling means that carriers must lease out their physical infrastructure to competitors at some wholesale price. These things a…

Why would unbundling without rate regulation be bad? The network owner could set the wholesale price at one that is still profitable, no?

> Why would unbundling without rate regulation be bad? > The network owner could set the wholesale price at one that is still profitable, no?

Yes. For example $10,000 per month.

I'm not trying to be clever here. The ISPs seemingly don't want to lease out their lines, or else they would probably have done it already. So if we wish to force the ISPs to lease out their lines, we will have to set a maximum price, either explicitly (as a dollar value) or a price that is somehow related to the costs incurred by the ISP.

Re: FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality

#410

Post by lucastx » Thu, Feb 05, 2015, 9:16 AM UTC

ikeboy wrote: post #370

Apocryphon wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allowing corporations to throttle traffic, while forcing them to be public about what they throttle, seems like an idea that would work in theory but at the same time quite taxing on the consumer. Click-through EULAs are all public, but how many people read them? It just seems like a business practice that ISPs will exploit and obfuscate, and most customers will sign on to them not knowing exactly how or why their da…

If customers don't care enough, that's also a choice. Apparently enough people care about this to make all this media and petition noise; those people could care enough to look up the info. Probably the EFF or such would come out with a helpful infographic showing the Good ISPs vs the Bad ones.

I think that framing this around "consumers" is not the main point here. If you think that those that benefit are only in a buy-and-sell negotiation, a free market is very appealing.

What we are doing here in Brazil regarding the upcoming regulations on the Internet and data protection [0] is to frame it around human rights issues -- freedom of expression and press freedom are the main ones.

The existence and action of governments is only justifiable for me to keep people from hurting each other too much, and preventing abusive power relationships. I believe current net neutrality issues are one of those situations.

[0]: http://www.internetlab.org.br/en/news/internet-brazil-debate...