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Testosterone is the drug of the future

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Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#271

Post by gambler »

davak wrote: post #55

MD here. Just remember that women live longer than men. Although it'll never be proven that hormones are part of that provess, I think it's a good assumption. Many males as they get older become more lovable and more pleasent to be around because of natural hormone declines. There are a ton of health issues such as balding, coronary artery disease, prostate cancer, obstructive sleep apnea that are related to testoste…

Just remember that women live longer than men.

I find it remarkable that people state and accept this in such matter-of-fact fashion, rather than seeing it as an issue. Pretty much all statistics that go the other way around are seen as a problem that needs fixing. (If you disagree, please provide a counter-example. I.e. something that shows higher disease or death rates among women that is discussed as a matter-of-fact without any controversy.)

When there is a difference in life expectancy, there is possibly an opportunity for improvement.

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#272

Post by nl »

saiya-jin wrote: post #159
vidarh wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do power lifting (non-competitive), and while I'm noticeably muscular and lift more than most people at my gym (no competitive lifters there, so doesn't say all that much), I'm not nearly at peak muscle volume nor do I look nearly as big as body builders much smaller than me - leanness makes a huge difference to perceived muscle size. Still, from an hour 2-4 times a week (2 times a week at the moment), with no ster…

Yeah, definitely, but there are drawbacks too. if you already have a woman by your side that you want to spend rest of your life with (and judging by your comment about son, you should be there) - extra ladies attention is annoying as hell. If you are actually mentally a grown up, this ain't an impressive result as it might seem :) (Yes, been/am there, but to impress ladies you don't need to be creepy muscular type.…

Testosterone has a benefit in endurance sports too. It can help with the growth of both slow-twitch (lean, endurance muscles) as well as fast-twitch (bulk, power muscles).

Even if you ignore the muscle building, it can help with recovery which leads to being able to recover from harder (endurance) training sessions.

That's often the reason that endurance cyclists use it (illegally of course).

See http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/Drug-Test.html for a amateur cyclist and journalist who took testosterone (along with HGH and EPO) to see what it would do.

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#273

Post by wavegeek »

golemotron wrote: post #86
mironathetin wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am happy that an expert without a bias reports about this. What you noted down came back into my mind immediately. These were the reported risks for professional athletes (back in the days when I decided to study physics instead of taking more of this junk and go pro). There are also natural ways to keep your own T level high, like healthy food, enough sleep, everything that increases your muscle mass (weightliftin…

I don't think so. If testosterone is the culprit for increased risk of coronary artery disease, prostate cancer and sleep apnea, then doing things that naturally increase testosterone will increase risk also. Don't succumb to the naturalistic fallacy. The body doesn't care where it gets its chemicals from.

There is no evidence T causes prostate cancer. If you have it, T may speed the growth. But that's all.

The by far dominant cause of sleep apnea is obesity. In marginal cases or in high doses T can exacerbate it, but it is not the main cause.

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#274

Post by wavegeek »

Loic wrote: post #106
davak wrote: post #55

MD here. Just remember that women live longer than men. Although it'll never be proven that hormones are part of that provess, I think it's a good assumption. Many males as they get older become more lovable and more pleasent to be around because of natural hormone declines. There are a ton of health issues such as balding, coronary artery disease, prostate cancer, obstructive sleep apnea that are related to testoste…

Studies[0] do support that eunuchs live longer than average men. You have also a study of the eunuchs of China's Emperor were living way longer than the men having the same lifestyle in the Forbidden City. I sadly can't find the study at the moment. [0]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch#Eunuchs_in_the_contempor...

The evidence for the longer life spans of eunuchs is actually pretty thin. Endocrinology textbooks regard it as unconvincing.

What is very clear though is the association in non-eunuchs of low T levels with a host of very harmful medical conditions including heart disease and osteoporosis.

Studies have consistently shown Low T is associated with these conditions and many more, but the evidence that T fixes them is unconvincing.

From my extensive review of these studies the problem is that the studies were too small and that those running the studies were too often, like too many people doing medical research, statistically illiterate.

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#275

Post by wavegeek »

vannevar wrote: post #165
golemotron wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. If testosterone is the culprit for increased risk of coronary artery disease, prostate cancer and sleep apnea, then doing things that naturally increase testosterone will increase risk also. Don't succumb to the naturalistic fallacy. The body doesn't care where it gets its chemicals from.

Don't succumb to the reductionist fallacy. The body is complex, and more than the sum of its parts, including its hormones. It's entirely possible that the process that produces testosterone naturally also has other effects that mitigate the downside of testosterone.

Another factor often forgotten is that HRT very poorly mimics the natural testosterone fluctuations in the body.

Testosterone fluctuates on a regular daily cycle, the reason for which is not known. Therefore it is not reproduced in treatment. The assumption is "we don't know why, so it mustn't be important".

Also the typical cycle of quarterly shots of T undecanoate or other similar regimes produce unphysiological fluctations from one injection to the next of over 110%. The patient goes from very high levels of test (close to 1000ug/dl) to very marginal levels (around 350).

Perhaps because of this, side effects from taking T supplements, such as hematocrit (excess red blood cell volume) are far greater with supplements than with those experiencing the same level of T from endogenous sources.

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#276

Post by wavegeek »

narrator wrote: post #248
davak wrote: post #55

MD here. Just remember that women live longer than men. Although it'll never be proven that hormones are part of that provess, I think it's a good assumption. Many males as they get older become more lovable and more pleasent to be around because of natural hormone declines. There are a ton of health issues such as balding, coronary artery disease, prostate cancer, obstructive sleep apnea that are related to testoste…

Replacing testosterone is just covering up for the fact that the cells that originally created it in the first place are slowly losing function due to aging. You want to keep those cells healthy if you want to live forever and that's what all the telomere hubbub is about.

This is utter rubbish. The natural age-related fall in T levels is only a few tenths of a percent per year. Healthy men tend to retain good T levels well into old age.

J Clin Endocrin Metab.doi:10.1210/jc.2012-3842 Longitudinal changes in testosterone over five years in community-dwelling men (abstract at end)

However for many other reasons, T levels can dramatically fall. Some of these reasons in include medications, stress, various diseases.

A common example is men who are on cortico-steroid medication for inflammatory or auto-immune conditions. Cortisol reduces T levels, reduces its effectiveness, and operates in the opposite manner (ie catabolic versus anabolic).

Longitudinal changes in testosterone over five years in community-dwelling men Zumin Shi 1 *,MD, PhD, Andre B. Araujo 2 ,PhD, Sean Martin 1 , Peter O’Loughlin 3 ,MD, PhD, and Gary A. Wittert 1 ,MD, FRACP 1 Discipline of Medicine, University of Adelaide, S Australia; 2 Epidemiology, New England Research Institutes, Inc., 9 Galen St, Watertown, MA 02472, United States; 3 Institute of Medical and Veterinary Science Pathology, Adelaide, S Australia Context. There are few population-based studies reporting longitudinal changes in total tes- tosterone (T), luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone (FSH), and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) levels, and limited information on risk factors for their change. Objective. The objective of the study was to examined 5-year changes in serum T, LH, FSH, and SHBG levels among Australian men. Design. A randomly selected, community based cohort of 1,588 men age 35 or older at recruit- ment (mean age 54؎11y), with available data at two visits. Men on medications known to affect, or with established pathology of, the hypothalamo-pituitary gonadal axis were excluded, leav- ing 1,382 for analysis. Results. Mean baseline and follow-up T levels were 16.2؎1.4nmol/L and 15.6؎1.4nmol/L; a change of -0.13nmol/L/y. Annualized T changes were associated with being unmarried, obesity, and smoking at baseline, but not diabetes, hypertension, or cardiovascular disease. T declined in men with persistent depression, or who developed chronic disease, and increased in men who were married, as compared to unmarried, at both time points. In the multivariate analysis, smoking cessation, development of central (waist >100cm) or generalised (BMI > 30) obesity resulted in T decreases of 0.36, 0.25, and 0.20nmol/L/y respectively. Quitting smoking, developing obesity, and having persisting depression were inversely related to SHBG change. Conclusions. An age-related decline in T levels is not inevitable but largely explained by smoking behaviour and intercurrent changes in health status, particularly obesity and depression."

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#277

Post by wavegeek »

stevepotter wrote: post #98

I went through a major testosterone-related health scare when I was 31 (4 years ago). I was in the midst of launching a startup. Stressed out, financially strained, hardly sleeping, hardly exercising, drinking too much. I thought I was eating right but turns out I wasn't. I began feeling like an empty shell of my former self. And yes, it totally affected my sex drive. Went to doc and had blood work done. My test leve…

> My test levels were about 200, which would be acceptable had I been 70 years old.

This is a myth. 200 is low for a healthy 70 year old. Without disease or T-killing medications, T levels fall very slowly with age alone.

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#278

Post by loucal »

wavegeek wrote: post #275
vannevar wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't succumb to the reductionist fallacy. The body is complex, and more than the sum of its parts, including its hormones. It's entirely possible that the process that produces testosterone naturally also has other effects that mitigate the downside of testosterone.

Another factor often forgotten is that HRT very poorly mimics the natural testosterone fluctuations in the body. Testosterone fluctuates on a regular daily cycle, the reason for which is not known. Therefore it is not reproduced in treatment. The assumption is "we don't know why, so it mustn't be important". Also the typical cycle of quarterly shots of T undecanoate or other similar regimes produce unphysiological fl…

In which country is quarterly undecanoate typical? I know the US FDA hasn't approved it and here the standard esther and frequency of injection are cypionate and once per week, as far as I can tell.

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#279

Post by cheepin »

hoka wrote: post #267
eyeJam wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone's ever watched the documentary "Bigger, Stronger, Faster*" they raise some interesting points questioning why steroids are demonized. Professional musicians take beta-blockers, athletes get laser eye surgery and take cortisone and opiate shots before/during competition, programmers take Adderall and Modafinil, male porn stars shot their penises full of drugs to stay erect for hours on end, etc. etc. Plenty…

I do agree that it should be up to the professionals, but consider amateurs moving into professional sports. If college football players can't take steroids, they will get __destroyed__ in the NFL. If college players can take steroids, then highschool players will stand no chance at moving up. Likewise, if you make it fine for high school players, middle school gets punished, etc. I don't doubt that professionals cou…

I think you are being a bit generous in assuming that a steroid ban in professional sports means that they are not used. In practice, it means that they must use them clandestinely, but I wouldn't be surprised if a future analysis reveals most of our top athletes of today are using PEDs. Additionally, highschool athletes are generally untested, meaning that highschool is their one opportunity to get ahead by whatever means necessary before attempting to carry that advantage forward with more conservative approaches in college and professional sports.

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#280

Post by nick_urban »

golemotron wrote: post #86
mironathetin wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am happy that an expert without a bias reports about this. What you noted down came back into my mind immediately. These were the reported risks for professional athletes (back in the days when I decided to study physics instead of taking more of this junk and go pro). There are also natural ways to keep your own T level high, like healthy food, enough sleep, everything that increases your muscle mass (weightliftin…

I don't think so. If testosterone is the culprit for increased risk of coronary artery disease, prostate cancer and sleep apnea, then doing things that naturally increase testosterone will increase risk also. Don't succumb to the naturalistic fallacy. The body doesn't care where it gets its chemicals from.

The naturalistic fallacy is not the idea that "natural things are better". It is a criticism of deriving ethical principals from natural/physical facts.
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