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Why Learning to Code Is So Damn Hard

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Re: Why Learning to Code Is So Damn Hard

#161

Post by dlwj »

bad_user wrote: post #95

Here's where I disagree with other people - software development is special in that it requires focus, relentlessness, intelligence, creativity and I also find it interesting that many software developers tend to suffer conditions from the autistic spectrum. To me that's a clear sign that software development requires the mind to be hardwired in a certain way. And the thing is - I never needed handholding, which is w…

I don't really agree on the hard-wiring. I do think programming is more of a mind based pursuit rather than a socially based pursuit though. "Autistic" tendencies are for the most part due to lack of experience or disinterest in social aspects rather than from actual neurological hardwiring preventing you from picking up and acting on social cues.

Other pursuits that are so interesting that the social factor isn't required include physics, mathematics, etc... These people aren't necessarily programmers.

Re: Why Learning to Code Is So Damn Hard

#162

Post by kpennell »

puranjay wrote: post #21
kcole16 wrote: post #8

For me, by far the hardest part was finding the time. Learning to code on nights and weekends, when you've spent your most productive and focused hours at your job, is a nightmare. It wasn't until I was actually hired as a dev that I started to hit a steep learning curve, and I attribute much of that to spending 50 of my best hours/week coding, rather than maybe 20 of my worst.

I have the same issue. I've set aside 10pm-2am every weekday to learn how to code, plus entire Saturdays and Sunday mornings. I can, at most, manage 20-25 hours, usually when I'm already bogged down. I've been toying with the idea of quitting everything and going all-in for 3-6 months. Would that be 100% retarded or just about 70% retarded? I can live with 70%.

Go to Latin America or SE Asia if you do. Your money will go a lot further.

Re: Why Learning to Code Is So Damn Hard

#163

Post by gaius »

pm90 wrote: post #132
bad_user wrote: post #95

Here's where I disagree with other people - software development is special in that it requires focus, relentlessness, intelligence, creativity and I also find it interesting that many software developers tend to suffer conditions from the autistic spectrum. To me that's a clear sign that software development requires the mind to be hardwired in a certain way. And the thing is - I never needed handholding, which is w…

I don't really agree with the notion that software development is something that others cannot learn if they try to do it; that seems like a very harsh perspective which, from my anecdotal experience, is far from the truth. Any skill can be learned if you have the discipline to put in regular effort: that's just the way the human mind works. I do agree that for a lot of people, Software Engineering is easier because…

Anyone can learn to play a musical instrument, and many people do, to a high standard, play in bands, release tracks, and so on.

But if a man selling guitars and guitar lessons tells you that your kids should learn to play the guitar and join a band because it's a well paid, secure career... Then you'd be wise to take that with a pinch of salt.

Re: Why Learning to Code Is So Damn Hard

#165

Post by cturner »

zo1 wrote: post #55
cturner wrote: post #34

"... was convinced that the seemingly normal programmers I ran into were actually sociopaths who had experienced, then repressed, the trauma of learning to code." It's true. The saddest part is that we forget who we were before we crossed over, and lose the ability to sympathise with people who haven't been through it.

I sympathize if I detect that they're genuine in their desire to learn and improve themselves. As for the others, the ones that just want to "get by", they don't get much of my sympathy. And that is after I try my best to inspire in them a sense of self-improvement when it comes to programming. Alas, not everyone has that outlook on programming, but rather just see it as a dumb-tool to muddle over some arbitrary prob…

What I wrote reads that way and I can see my error. There are lots of pretenders and I do not apologise for them. I intended to write that our brains get rewired to make things that were once hard easy, that we do not know what to explain.

My strategy for people who ask me to tutor them is this: work through the first five chapters of /learn python the hard way/ by yourself, and I will mentor you the rest. Those chapters are so easy, it is just a test of motivation. I have only had one starter. Also, she finished.

Re: Why Learning to Code Is So Damn Hard

#166

Post by carapace »

AtmaScout wrote: post #153
cblock811 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been teaching myself off of online resources and 'magic' was what I hated most along the way. I can't debug magic. I've ended up digging so deep to understand things that I'm covering assembly now. It's painful, but going so far has made everything else make a lot more sense. Data structures are easier to conceptualize and will be easier to work with (for example). But most people I know don't get this far when…

Nicely put. Not enough people dive to the lower levels.

We should start at the lower levels. It is all easy to understand if you build up from first principals: Binary, logic gates, cpus and assembly, then it splits with compilers on one branch and LISP and Smalltalk on two others and a bunch of brush and shrubs and time to retire that metaphor.

Unlike climbing Everest or understanding how the human body works the challenges in learning to program are entirely man-made! (Except for recursion, of course.)

Re: Why Learning to Code Is So Damn Hard

#167

Post by brianwawok »

DougWebb wrote: post #149
nsomaru wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather know when something is incorrect, rather than pushing to production and finding out later because someone else took that code path.

If you rely on your compiler to tell you that your code is correct, there are whole classes of bugs that are waiting to surprise you in production. I think that many years of developing large applications in Perl were really good for me. Perl is compiled when you run it, so you get the basic-syntax check that you get with other languages. But it's also very lenient, so you learn through experience to get your logic r…

There is a difference from RELY on compile to catch 100% of bugs, vs having an awesome type system that can take whole CLASSES of bugs and make them impossible to get past a compile.

Is a statically typed language more likely than a dynamic language to work correctly in production, if both have 0 tests? Yes.

Is either ideal? No.

Can both be improved by adding a few tests? Yes.

Re: Why Learning to Code Is So Damn Hard

#168

Post by jpindar »

inDigiNeous wrote: post #73
ForHackernews wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C'mon, all of those things you listed (brain surgeon, rocket scientist, lawyer) are WAY harder and more expensive/time-intensive to get into than software engineering. If you feel like your knowledge is getting flushed away with a new platform, then you've been learning the wrong things.

Really? How is being a brain surgeon more difficult than being a computer surgeon ? Understanding how a CPU completely works, on the assembler and even on hardware level is FRIGGING HARD. Computers are very complex and huge beasts of logic to really understand, and the best programmers have to understand a huge amount of technical skills and systems in order to get the wanted results. I have no idea how much stuff a…

There's no version control for brain surgery.

Re: Why Learning to Code Is So Damn Hard

#169

Post by mb_72 »

pm90 wrote: post #132
bad_user wrote: post #95

Here's where I disagree with other people - software development is special in that it requires focus, relentlessness, intelligence, creativity and I also find it interesting that many software developers tend to suffer conditions from the autistic spectrum. To me that's a clear sign that software development requires the mind to be hardwired in a certain way. And the thing is - I never needed handholding, which is w…

I don't really agree with the notion that software development is something that others cannot learn if they try to do it; that seems like a very harsh perspective which, from my anecdotal experience, is far from the truth. Any skill can be learned if you have the discipline to put in regular effort: that's just the way the human mind works. I do agree that for a lot of people, Software Engineering is easier because…

Sure, most people can 'learn' most things - but how well can they apply them? How good a developer / musician / etc will they be?

I feel that this 'anyone can code' movement is good up to a point, and dangerous beyond that. In the same way that we don't need more half-arse and incompetent engineers, lawyers, doctors, pilots, we don't need similarly incapable developers. The field of software engineering is still in it's infancy, and the last thing that is needed are barely-capable developers who needed hand-holding every step of the way to be lowering the bar.

Re: Why Learning to Code Is So Damn Hard

#170

Post by PhasmaFelis »

curyous wrote: post #45

Learning to code is not hard. At all. Not relative to things that actually are hard. Having trained as an electronic engineer, programming is by far one of the easiest things I've ever done, by an order of magnitude. You can tell by the number of teenagers that can code, how many teenagers can design a nuclear submarine? That is much harder to learn.

This comment illustrates a major reason why bad design and bad interfaces exist: engineers who think that "easy for me" is the same thing as "easy."
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