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A Software Engineer’s Adventures in Learning Mathematics

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Re: A Software Engineer’s Adventures in Learning Mathematics

#101

Post by brudgers »

I lost interest in mathematics starting in tenth grade. Looking back into the haze, it wasn't so much mathematics as high school in general and by extension industrialized education. Boredom begat indifference. Chaos reoriented priorities across starts and fits with mathematics in post-secondary education.

I enrolled in Coursera's Discreet Optimization about a year ago. It was way beyond my ability [No SoA], but I learned a hell of a lot about computing and solving hard computational problems. It also suggested that mathematics might be important when grappling interesting problems.

For fun I watched a number of Strang's Open-Courseware videos on matrices. I hit Chapter 1 of TAoCP. I treated it like programming - it was ok to only partially understand. I took an Algorithms MOOC or two. I actually enjoyed following the analysis even formal analysis is not something I would do for pleasure.

The turning point though was when Lamport's "Thinking for Programmers" [Lamport: Thinking] hit HN. It threw down the gauntlet. Specification is a prerequisite for a commitment to getting it right, where the it is computing. And when the it is computing, we are talking about math whether we like it or not.

It's not that the math and specification replaces testing. It's that tests are ad hoc without a mathematical understanding of the computation.

[Lamport: Thinking] http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2014/3-642

Re: A Software Engineer’s Adventures in Learning Mathematics

#102

Post by nilkn »

pjmlp wrote: post #33

I don't get the title. At least on my home country, a Software Engineer job title implies a CS degree with at least two years full of math.

There's a lot of title inflation in the US, where someone who only knows some HTML, CSS, and a bit of JavaScript, with little formal engineering education of any kind, can be called a software engineer.

Re: A Software Engineer’s Adventures in Learning Mathematics

#103

Post by vdnkh »

brational wrote: post #97
vdnkh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm employed as a Software Engineer now but my degree is in ECE. The engineering curriculum at my university (Rutgers) was extremely math intensive. I didn't take a whole lot of software classes but I'm glad I did take all that math. I think it's dishonest to call yourself a Software Engineer and not have an engineering degree. Semantics, but I earned the title.

>I think it's dishonest to call yourself a Software Engineer and not have an engineering degree. Definitely semantics. For example, I have a BS/MS in applied math from a good engineering school university. I am a software engineer mainly working with ECEs, physics, and other math guys, who are all "software engineers". I see where you're coming from about being a SW eng without knowing a lot of math - but there are o…

Right, an engineering degree is a guarantee that you know the important points of what it means to be an engineer. Ethics, engineering process, math, etc. When you get an engineering degree from a certified university, you are an engineer. It's a guarantee that (at one point, at least), you possessed the set of skills and knowledge determined by a board of professionals to be necessary for a career of engineering. Other degrees may overlap, but they're not held to the same standards.

Re: A Software Engineer’s Adventures in Learning Mathematics

#104

Post by j2kun »

brudgers wrote: post #101

I lost interest in mathematics starting in tenth grade. Looking back into the haze, it wasn't so much mathematics as high school in general and by extension industrialized education. Boredom begat indifference. Chaos reoriented priorities across starts and fits with mathematics in post-secondary education. I enrolled in Coursera's Discreet Optimization about a year ago. It was way beyond my ability [No SoA], but I le…

Discreet and discrete are two very different words :)

Re: A Software Engineer’s Adventures in Learning Mathematics

#105

Post by engi_nerd »

vdnkh wrote: post #85
engi_nerd wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand where this feeling comes from. You worked hard to earn what is (or what should be) a title with prestige: engineer. I too worked hard to earn degrees in engineering. I try to live up to that title every day, and I'm sure you do, too. But my years of engineering experience have shown me that the title "Engineer" is really more about how you approach problems and what you do to solve them and less about de…

Right, I understand your point. I said in an earlier post that an engineer is one who obtains an engineering degree from a certified university. I realize that it's pedantic and elitist, and there's definitely a part of me who thinks it's idiotic. Because it is. It's a title, who cares right? It doesn't lessen the worth of my degree. I've been trying to come up with valid reasons for why it's important for only peopl…

My coworker knows some calculus. I doubt he knows linear algebra. The forward-active voltage for a BJT? Maybe one other person I work with knows that, I doubt he does. I did not when I graduated, but then I am not a EE. My degrees are in Engineering Physics and Fluid Mechanics. Almost by accident I have become a flight test instrumentation engineer with the official job title of "Senior Electronics Engineer". I have tried hard to remedy my EE related shortcomings through self-study, and will continue to do so. I would never call myself an EE -- just an engineer.

I agree with you, for the purposes of your argument, that degree should serve as a guarantee. It is an important signifier of mastered domain knowledge, and more importantly, a signifier of the ability to master new domains.

EDIT: That last sentence was a run-on, fixed it.

Re: A Software Engineer’s Adventures in Learning Mathematics

#106

Post by bluekite2000 »

omegaoaties wrote: post #83
toolslive wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some countries it's illegal to call yourself an engineer without having an engineering degree. The degree is "protected" by the government and can only be acquired from certified organizations (like universities).

Can't stress this enough- in Canada (Ontario specifically) it is a serious fine for anyone caught using the term without being certified by a professional organization.

what about in the US? Is there such a fine?

Re: A Software Engineer’s Adventures in Learning Mathematics

#107

Post by pjmlp »

coldtea wrote: post #86
pjmlp wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to the HR guys or the order institution that validates university degrees and who is allowed to sign projects.

Well, I've seen software engineers with masters degrees that can't math their way out of a paper bag. In several countries. And, "validated university degress" or not, I doubt a fizz buzz interview would have much different results in your country as opposed to the US: http://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/

Most likely I would have failed fizz buzz, given that if it wasn't for HN I would have never heard of it.

Re: A Software Engineer’s Adventures in Learning Mathematics

#108

Post by IndianAstronaut »

bitL wrote: post #80

What I understood after studying CS for over 10 years at a few universities regularly ranked highly at ACM ICPC is that math is unnecessarily obfuscated to most people. There is even an excellent book "Concrete Mathematics" from Stanford that tries to bring fun back to math instead of drying people with some formal stuff without explaining how people over the centuries got to that structure. I honestly believe math l…

This is what drew me to CS over math. I enjoy describing things with code or pseudo code, not difficult to understand equations and math symbols. Also, it is much easier to see the practicality of an equation when presented in code form.

Re: A Software Engineer’s Adventures in Learning Mathematics

#109

Post by DennisP »

I just started this Coursera linear algebra course designed for software engineers, which looks really good: https://www.coursera.org/course/matrix

So far it tracks the matching textbook pretty closely. The first little set of lectures covered the first 62 pages.

Re: A Software Engineer’s Adventures in Learning Mathematics

#110

Post by j2kun »

jordanb wrote: post #78
decasteve wrote: post #48

This topic comes up every so often. I think my previous comment applies here [1]: I started a Math degree after 16 years of programming without any Math beyond high school (the highest being high school calculus). Most of my work as a software developer didn't require any "higher" Maths. Once I began studying math, including Modern Algebra, Analysis, Graph Theory, Category Theory, etc., I realized I understood many t…

I'm in a similar boat as you. I went up through Calculus in school and hated it. Around 5 years ago I developed a strong interest in learning relevant applied math and have been enjoying it since. Some things I'd add: 1) Math is fun! If you have the aptitude and disposition to enjoy writing software you'll love working out math problems. They're little nuggets of mental stimulation that you can work on with just some…

> maybe you took a calculus class in college but can you apply the Chain rule right now?

Even more than the chain rule, Taylor series approximations are what I constantly see applied in computer science and applied math.

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