SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more • Hacker News Board

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#211

Post by jsprogrammer » Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 12:22 AM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #160

jsprogrammer wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Then what incentive would there be to start one, or to design a business model that will outlive said fixed time? Outside investors could still recoup their initial investment + gains. Those who start, design, and execute the business will be gaining the shares over time as they are employees (although, I'm not sure this would still be the right nomenclature) of the business. How about this question, "Why should an…

"Outside investors could still recoup their initial investment + gains" But less, otherwise there would be no reason for the workers to want any part of it. Will the workers pay the investors back if the business goes tits up? "Why should an initial investor get an everlasting percentage of profits without continuous input?" Because it's his , and there is no reason to require ongoing effort to reap the benefits of s…

"Because it's his"

You pulled out a Nazi analogy on me last time, so this time I'll pull out a (more apt) slaveholder analogy.

Why should a slaveholder get the labor of a slave in perpetuity? By your logic, it's simple: because it's his. Most of the world has moved beyond that flavor of opportunistic logic and we'll eventually get past the current flavor of the century.

"Does an orchard owner only 'own' the apples from his trees if he has actively watered them?"

1) If the orchard doesn't get sufficient natural irrigation, then no the owner doesn't, simply by virtue of the trees not producing any fruit.

2) If the orchard does get sufficient irrigation (especially as a result of another's labor), then the orchard "owner" doesn't have much claim to the fruit. Yes, the owner may pull out a deed chain that goes back to a grant from the US government, or a Queen/King of the British Empire and attempt to argue that gives him absolute ownership over the fruit. The owner might even convince most with that historical argument. Depending on the exact circumstances in question, I might argue the claim is laughable.

"In the 'plan' you are defending, she would have to give the ownership of that salon to her employees after, I don't know, 10 years?"

I'm not defending a plan, I merely asked a question. I don't know what the specifics could, or should, be. It's a slightly different model to think about that allows for a more inclusive economy.

Anyway, in your example, Mary would still retain ownership, assuming she contributed real labor to the enterprise. Mary would just also be sharing ownership with all of the other people who also made that enterprise possible, instead of purely exploiting the other contributors for her own personal profit.

"I'm not even sure why I'm responding, really."

Slightly curious? It's OK to explore taboos. Sometimes you find out everyone else was full of shit.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#212

Post by imron » Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 3:23 AM UTC

tootie wrote: post #173

imron wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really tricky problem though, because what happens when factory jobs bring in more money than those that require further education and training? What you get is people dropping out of school to go and work in those factories, which then only goes on to perpetuate the poverty cycle. I don't have any good solutions, but I do know the answer isn't as simple as just doubling factory workers' wages.

Nah. That Flappy Bird guy made a small fortune even by first world standards. It drove him insane too.

The difference being that the Flappy Bird guy was doing skilled labour (programming) of that sort that is likely to help end poverty cycles.

Compare that to thousands of people dropping out of the education system early to do unskilled factory work because it pays well above average salaries.

Imagine for example you could make $120,000 a year as a programmer, or $200,000 a year doing factory work. Do you think society will produce more programmers or more factory workers?

Imagine what happens a few years down the line when the multinational that owns the factory decides to up and move to another country in order to reduce costs.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#213

Post by sameerds » Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 4:31 AM UTC

nkoren wrote: post #199

techaddict009 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still I cant believe it. 150 rs/Month wage is history of 2-3 decades ago. Since 95-98 wages have been increased a lot. Atleast 100rs per day.

Well, believe it or not, but that's the wage that built Gandhinagar. (Note that due to inflation, that would be the equivalent of about rs.250/month today). Perhaps on paper the workers were making quite a bit more, but this was then "deducted" for their nominal food, housing, etc. In any case rs.150/month was their actual take-home pay. I couldn't believe it either, and triple-checked to be sure. India has come a lo…

Clearly, this picture is vastly different from the original picture you painted. I feel let down by the fact that you did not mention how outdated your original description was.

I live in a newer area of Bangalore and my apartment is surrounded by construction sites. There's a settlement of construction workers right across the road. What we see is small temporary one-room houses with satellite TV, and families that dress up and go out every Sunday. We even see them buying basic cosmetics in the local stores. Kids are not visible in the day time either in the settlement or on the construction sites, and I like to hope that they are actually in school.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#214

Post by dragontamer » Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 4:37 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #165

6stringmerc wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American with a Bill Buckley-type of conservative upbringing which made an interesting combination considering both my parents were born and raised Californians. I mention this because one of the phrases I heard long ago was, I guess, a selfish perspective about globalisation: "It's not about bringing the rest of the world up, it's about bringing down our wages and standard of living here in the USA." Frankly,…

To me, the big problem with globalization is not the conditions of the sweatshops in India. $1 a day and the chance of burning alive in a garment factory (happened just the other day in Bangladesh) is better than subsistence farming, probably.[1] My problem with it is that of the $50 a day that comes out of an American pocket by exporting that work overseas, $1 goes to the Bengali garment worker, and $49 goes into th…

Taxes + tariffs can solve that issue.

The main issue is if you push too hard, then the $49 to US shareholders suddenly becomes $49 to Irish Shareholders instead, as companies have the ability to move themselves to other countries to take advantage of tax codes.

So the tax / tariff systems need to be written in a way to account for that. Or we can get a quicker Congress so that we can keep up with (legal) tax evaders.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#215

Post by kylebrown » Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 6:51 AM UTC

imron wrote: post #212

tootie wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah. That Flappy Bird guy made a small fortune even by first world standards. It drove him insane too.

The difference being that the Flappy Bird guy was doing skilled labour (programming) of that sort that is likely to help end poverty cycles. Compare that to thousands of people dropping out of the education system early to do unskilled factory work because it pays well above average salaries. Imagine for example you could make $120,000 a year as a programmer, or $200,000 a year doing factory work. Do you think societ…

> Imagine for example you could make $120,000 a year as a programmer, or $200,000 a year doing factory work. Do you think society will produce more programmers or more factory workers?

Say I can make $25k a year as a janitor, or $360k as an anesthesiologist. Is society producing more janitors, or more anesthesiologists?

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#216

Post by kylebrown » Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 6:56 AM UTC

pagnotta wrote: post #175

RaffRaff wrote: post #46

That's why I keep clear of "ecommerce import from China" businesses. I just cant do it knowing people suffer while I profit

They will suffer more without the job. You think not buying from them will help them...how?

Buying fair trade supports an alternative over the status quo.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#217

Post by kylebrown » Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 6:58 AM UTC

vdaniuk wrote: post #150

I am depressed that significant part of collective intelligence of the most intelligent and influential tech communities on the internet is advocating for sweatshops because the alternative is worse. False dichotomy, if I ever seen one.

The current system is not the best of all possible worlds. There are better alternatives (eg. fair trade), ignoring them is just laziness.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#218

Post by INTPenis » Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 8:58 AM UTC

bruna597 wrote: post #208

waps wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should the people on this show be held to any higher standard than anybody else ? I don't feel any more ill will towards these people than I feel to myself, for the same reason : I wear clothes like these. Do you ?

I just think that they could take advantage of the voice that was given to them through the show.

They're very spoiled brats imo. There are kids that age who recognize the problems with inequality in the world and have far better attitudes than those kids.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#219

Post by imron » Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 9:27 AM UTC

kylebrown wrote: post #215

imron wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference being that the Flappy Bird guy was doing skilled labour (programming) of that sort that is likely to help end poverty cycles. Compare that to thousands of people dropping out of the education system early to do unskilled factory work because it pays well above average salaries. Imagine for example you could make $120,000 a year as a programmer, or $200,000 a year doing factory work. Do you think societ…

> Imagine for example you could make $120,000 a year as a programmer, or $200,000 a year doing factory work. Do you think society will produce more programmers or more factory workers? Say I can make $25k a year as a janitor, or $360k as an anesthesiologist. Is society producing more janitors, or more anesthesiologists?

That analogy doesn't fit what I'm saying because an anesthesiologist is a highly skilled occupation and it takes years of specialised training to a gain the qualifications and skills necessary to work in that field.

Flipping it around and you get something closer, e.g. imagine instead a janitor made $360k a year and an anesthesiologist $25k. You'd find society would have a huge shortage of anesthesiologists because why would anyone go through all that training to get a job that pays a fraction of what you could earn cleaning toilets.

You'd also find people dropping out of college to become janitors.

Now ask yourself what happens in developing countries when unskilled factory workers get paid double what you could earn as a university graduate. What happens is that many people decide they would rather work in a factory than go to university.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#220

Post by pluma » Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 7:53 PM UTC

murbard2 wrote: post #153

wahsd wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And black people benefited from the privilege of being slaves to white, civilized people. amirite? WARNING: The following is going to cause cognitive dissonance in many people, even among the rather intelligent people here. Don't fool yourselves, the conditions in Asia under which people make "stuff" for you, which you don't even value, for $0.50 per hour is nothing more or less than slavery. It is the same kind of s…

Slavery is a legal or economic system under which people are treated as property. It has nothing to do with wages. Slaves under ancient Rome could earned wages and sometimes bought themselves out of slavery. In the U.S. for a variety of reasons, including no doubt racism, slaves were treated far worse. The argument you're making "wage-slavery" is an old one. What is the difference between a slave and someone who earn…

> Slaves under ancient Rome could earned wages and sometimes bought themselves out of slavery.

Not just that, in some cases slaves could actually be better off than some free citizens at the time. Although I doubt this kind of vertical mobility was particularly common.

And of course, absolutely speaking, a first world citizen today living in poverty is still far better off than a rich nobleman a few hundred years ago. It's the unequal distribution we find unfair, not merely the individual situation.