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SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

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191–200 of 232 posts

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#191
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But they just need to work harder." You don't often hear that from left wing people. You do hear it a lot from right wing UK politicians.

Well, you don't hear that too often from right wing people, either. (Except caricatures, perhaps built by left wing people). (Yes, there are similar or mirror caricatures built by right wing people about left wing people. However, even as a right wing person, I might admit that not everyone in the left wing is Pol Pot).

To show how silly the "right wing" vs "left wing" split can be, the UK under the government of Mrs Thatcher ("right wing") gave military assistance to the Khmer Rouge ("left wing") - presumably as the latter were the enemies of the Vietnamese ("left wing").

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#192

I really don't understand this problem. Why does everybody think people in Asia are forced to do this kind of work? These people would be incredibly poor if not for western companies. Actually most of them would die being children as a result of their poverty: malnutrition, accidents, preventable diseases such as polio or measles. Go now and check what was China's annual GDP per capita in Mao Zedong times. Just see i…

It's not only about the low wage they getting, or GDP per capita, there's also the working and living conditions you have to consider. They don't have holidays, can't take a vacation, don't have insurance at work, no sliding hours, no personal input whatsoever. Their whole life is determined by work, with virtually zero change of improvement within their generation. Maybe, just maybe, they can save a little for the education of one child. The next kids are toast. Low wages are one thing, but it's even worse if you have to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year for it.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait - average wages a decade ago were like a dollar a day. So tripling that sounds like something I guess. I'd like to see something like parity for wages doing the same work anywhere on the planet. That would be progress.

> I'd like to see something like parity for wages doing the same work anywhere on the planet I'd like a pony. Saying, in the year 2015, that wages should be the same anywhere on the planet is telling poor countries with no infrastructure "fuck you, got mine." Because the only reason someone opens a factory in Cambodia or China instead of South Carolina is because of the low wages. That is those countries' competitive…

>I'd like a pony.

All right, have an over-worked pony and stop pretending not to know about marginal costs and prices. As long as the worker in Cambodia remains cheaper by anything over the exact cost of shipping than the one in South Carolina, rather than by orders of magnitude, his country has a comparative advantage.

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/196/0/f/tired_appleja...

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#194
post #118

I'm an American with a left-wing upbringing and still broadly left-wing politics. When I graduated from architecture school in 2001, I wanted some international experience, so I moved to India. What I saw there utterly transformed my preconceptions of sweatshops -- because I saw it before the sweatshops began opening. One of the projects I was helping to design was a "science city" tech campus. The workers lived in a…

>The standard wage was roughly $3 per MONTH..... I am from India and I dont see $3 per Month wage anywhere! You can find atleast 2$ per day as minimum wage since years. Either I have misunderstood what you said or you have written something wrong.

No, we're both right. I was writing about the situation in semi-rural Gujarat in 2001. The wages on the construction sites I went to were indeed rs.150/month. Today the labour situation is very dramatically improved -- largely because of India opening its markets to the world.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#195
Sweatshops themselves aren't the problem, but rather the fact that the game is rigged against the average person.

They could just farm self sustainably, however they lack the knowledge and large landowners own the land. They also tend to have too many kids as well.

You can choose between being a peasant that is given some land to work as farmland in exchange for a shack to dwell in and some very basic food or be slightly less worse off in a sweatshop. You get fucked either way and there is no way out as education is a joke in cambodia and the like and there is no industry to employ any higher educated people to begin with.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#196
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The standard wage was roughly $3 per MONTH..... I am from India and I dont see $3 per Month wage anywhere! You can find atleast 2$ per day as minimum wage since years. Either I have misunderstood what you said or you have written something wrong.

No, we're both right. I was writing about the situation in semi-rural Gujarat in 2001. The wages on the construction sites I went to were indeed rs.150/month. Today the labour situation is very dramatically improved -- largely because of India opening its markets to the world.

Still I cant believe it. 150 rs/Month wage is history of 2-3 decades ago. Since 95-98 wages have been increased a lot. Atleast 100rs per day.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd like to see something like parity for wages doing the same work anywhere on the planet I'd like a pony. Saying, in the year 2015, that wages should be the same anywhere on the planet is telling poor countries with no infrastructure "fuck you, got mine." Because the only reason someone opens a factory in Cambodia or China instead of South Carolina is because of the low wages. That is those countries' competitive…

>I'd like a pony. All right, have an over-worked pony and stop pretending not to know about marginal costs and prices. As long as the worker in Cambodia remains cheaper by anything over the exact cost of shipping than the one in South Carolina, rather than by orders of magnitude, his country has a comparative advantage. http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/196/0/f/tired_appleja...

Thanks for the pony!

It's not just shipping costs. It's also the fact that doing business in a well-functioning first-world country is much easier than doing business in a third-world country.

Also, just declaring that Cambodian workers will get $7 an hour wouldn't just magically spill money into the workers. If the market wage is $1 an hour, a bulk of that difference is going to go into pockets of the people handing out the jobs via kickbacks.

An awesome solution that doesn't work in the real world isn't an awesome solution.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#198
post #118

I'm an American with a left-wing upbringing and still broadly left-wing politics. When I graduated from architecture school in 2001, I wanted some international experience, so I moved to India. What I saw there utterly transformed my preconceptions of sweatshops -- because I saw it before the sweatshops began opening. One of the projects I was helping to design was a "science city" tech campus. The workers lived in a…

This.

I'll just throw in a family anecdote from the northern corner of Europe. About 107 years ago, my grandfather was a twelve-year-old boy and as all boys at that time and his social class did, he went to work in the forest, logging trees with his father and brothers. They were not the poorest, but had to work hard to make a living, and that meant also children.

A pile of logs came loose and rolled on his knee, crushing it. My folks were so well-off people in a well-off area that they actually took the boy to a doctor, who said that his knee might never recover and he couldn't work in the forest.

"What use do I have for such a boy?" was my great-grandfather's reaction, in a tone of agitation and disbelief.

No tears for the boy, no expression of sympathy for the immense pain. It was simply the grief of losing labour, a pair of hands and feet that could work for the family, a family which had for generations made a living in subsistence farming but now could work the forests for the emerging paper and sawmill industries. He had no use for a boy that couldn't work.

That might sound totally heartless today, but those days, it was the natural reaction. A kid who couldn't contribute, e.g. in logging trees, was just a useless mouth to feed. My grandfather's knee mended eventually well enough for him to work, and he died of tuberculosis at the age of 56, ten years before I was born.

And our family was not at all the poorest of families; they lived in a nation that was at that time ahead in poverty reduction of where much of India is now: there was even a new, universal school system! And there were those industries that were exploiting child labour.

How the world has changed. My own father still worked the forest with a horse; in between he went to a world war and then again worked the forest with a leg that was shot to pieces and did not mend well. His hands were rough with calluses. But mine are soft. Beside school I got a job at cemetery digging graves, earned money to buy a Sinclair ZX Spectrum, became a software engineer.

Even if logging and debugging MySQL slow queries is a bit tedious, it's so vastly more pleasant and less dangerous work than logging trees and debugging lice from your bedclothes at a lumber cabin, which is what our previous generations did, that it's worth leaning back and thinking of. Still, the development to this status required that people like my folks did this work and eventually built a nation that could produce someone who could produce MySQL.

Parts of the world are still the same. Those sweatshops are a step in between miserable subsistence farming and modern welfare. Yes, make them safer so that no one is burned alive because the doors are locked. Count me in as "rabidly pro-globalization".

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#199
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we're both right. I was writing about the situation in semi-rural Gujarat in 2001. The wages on the construction sites I went to were indeed rs.150/month. Today the labour situation is very dramatically improved -- largely because of India opening its markets to the world.

Still I cant believe it. 150 rs/Month wage is history of 2-3 decades ago. Since 95-98 wages have been increased a lot. Atleast 100rs per day.

Well, believe it or not, but that's the wage that built Gandhinagar. (Note that due to inflation, that would be the equivalent of about rs.250/month today). Perhaps on paper the workers were making quite a bit more, but this was then "deducted" for their nominal food, housing, etc. In any case rs.150/month was their actual take-home pay. I couldn't believe it either, and triple-checked to be sure.

India has come a long ways since then. Although the working conditions on construction sites are still far from good enough, I don't see children on them anymore, and those same workers would probably be taking home rs.5000/month today -- maybe rs.3000/month in places where contractors are more brazen about skirting the law. In any case: much better.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#200
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But they just need to work harder." You don't often hear that from left wing people. You do hear it a lot from right wing UK politicians.

Well, you don't hear that too often from right wing people, either. (Except caricatures, perhaps built by left wing people). (Yes, there are similar or mirror caricatures built by right wing people about left wing people. However, even as a right wing person, I might admit that not everyone in the left wing is Pol Pot).

Thinking in terms of wings is stupid. There are people on our very own hn who think that way though https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8990458
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