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Science’s Biggest Fail

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241–250 of 260 posts

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about this: let's nobody ever say 'the science is settled' about anything. I'm fine with that. What about instead we use confidence interval logic, and say things like: 'With extremely high confidence we think that carbon emissions from humans are causing climate change.' You might not agree with that statement either, but it gets us over this non-productive pedantry and into an actionable discussion. Let's try i…

Correct, I'm not sure that I do. There's a lot of research into what CO2 is doing, and a lot of people think it MUST be CO2. Where are all the other papers talking about how it can't be (or might be) refrigerants? I saw one paper saying that refrigerant concentrations and increasing temperatures are correlated and that author got excoriated as a "denier". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_refrigerants You'll notic…

Dude, I promise you that the reality I want to be true is not one where we have fucked up the earth's climate.

I will only reiterate that if 1000 brain surgeons say X, you should probably believe X unless you have very particular reasons to believe you are way smarter than all of them and know things about brain surgery that they don't know.

And of course once in a great while that happens. There was a guy who first said that the earth was not flat, and all the other learned folks thought he was daft and then probably set him on fire or something. However, I have zero evidence to believe this accounts for any of the variance in the current moment in time, with climate, immunization, any of it. A far simpler explanation will do the trick, as mentioned in my original msg.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#242
post #201
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of recommendations that lead to heart disease, three sarcastic cheers for massively understating the risks associated with abstinence from alcohol. Mostly I just hear "moderate consumption is associated with some health benefits", which isn't anywhere close to conveying the findings (questionable, as always!) that not drinking is almost as risky as "heavy" drinking. Especially considering that you practicall…

Adams has a good point relating to alcohol, though. They haven't been unable to untangle correlation and causation. I used to be a "moderate drinker" until I developed (unrelated) health problems that mean taking medication every day. When I take my meds I can't drink. These health problems are statistically likely to end me sooner than most people. So I'm likely going to be in the "doesn't drink dies earlier than av…

I'm sure that point is not lost on researchers, but yeah, factoring in the effect of existing conditions is easier said than done correctly.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scientific consensus was worse than "fat is bad for you", it was saturated fat is bad, so switch from butter to trans fat loaded margarine. It lead to things like McDonalds using hydrogenated vegetable oil instead of saturated fat laden beef tallow in their fryers. The scientific consensus was specifically wrong on the types of fat that were bad.

> The scientific consensus was worse than "fat is bad for you", it was saturated fat is bad, so switch from butter to trans fat loaded margarine. That recommendation was never "the scientific consensus" -- for most of the time after saturated fat was identified as a concern and before trans fats were identified as a specific concern, the scientific consensus was that the best change was to eliminate the saturated fat…

And, actually, the scientific consensus still seems to mostly be that saturated fat is bad from a cardiovascular disease perspective

I don't think it is anymore.

A Systematic Review of the Evidence Supporting a Causal Link Between Dietary Factors and Coronary Heart Disease

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=11084...

Insufficient evidence (≤2 criteria) of association is present for intake of supplementary vitamin E and ascorbic acid (vitamin C); saturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids; total fat;

Reduced or modified dietary fat for preventing cardiovascular disease

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD002137...

There were no clear effects of dietary fat changes on total mortality (RR 0.98, 95% CI 0.93 to 1.04, 71,790 participants) or cardiovascular mortality

Meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies evaluating the association of saturated fat with cardiovascular disease

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/91/3/535.long

no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#244
post #170
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One big reason for this is that, ethically, we can't just go experiment on live humans The US has an enormous prison population. They get fed for $2.50 per day. Is it possible to recruit prisoners ethically to take part in diet research?

Recruiting prisoners is actually a huge pain - they're one of several protected categories (along with children and soldiers) based on the potential that their "consent" isn't really all that consenting. In my mind, this exists for good reason, but it does kill almost any study that doesn't absolutely need to be conducted on prisoners for their own benefit.

[deleted]

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#245
post #2

Two nits: I used to think vitamins had been thoroughly studied for their health trade-offs. They haven’t. The reason you take one multivitamin pill a day is marketing, not science. One reason to take the latter is to make sure you don't get a deficiency disease. I used to think I needed to drink a crazy-large amount of water each day, because smart people said so, but that wasn’t science either. I don't know about "c…

> One reason to take the latter is to make sure you don't get a deficiency disease.

Eating a balanced diet every day gets you way more vitamins than your body can absorb. I learnt this from a biologist who studied digestion about 18 years ago. According to him vitamin pills were completely unnecessary.

I have never heard of people getting a deficiency disease with a balanced diet (say, a typical Mediterranean diet). So it's probably a combination of marketing and quick-fixes (The real message behind the pill is ... "Want to sit on your couch and eat pizza every day? No problem, just pop-in a pill!")

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#246
post #2

Two nits: I used to think vitamins had been thoroughly studied for their health trade-offs. They haven’t. The reason you take one multivitamin pill a day is marketing, not science. One reason to take the latter is to make sure you don't get a deficiency disease. I used to think I needed to drink a crazy-large amount of water each day, because smart people said so, but that wasn’t science either. I don't know about "c…

> One reason to take the latter is to make sure you don't get a deficiency disease. Eating a balanced diet every day gets you way more vitamins than your body can absorb. I learnt this from a biologist who studied digestion about 18 years ago. According to him vitamin pills were completely unnecessary. I have never heard of people getting a deficiency disease with a balanced diet (say, a typical Mediterranean diet).…

Vitamin D deficiency is pretty common, especially among people further north.

The changing advice on fat might help with that.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#247
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One reason to take the latter is to make sure you don't get a deficiency disease. Eating a balanced diet every day gets you way more vitamins than your body can absorb. I learnt this from a biologist who studied digestion about 18 years ago. According to him vitamin pills were completely unnecessary. I have never heard of people getting a deficiency disease with a balanced diet (say, a typical Mediterranean diet).…

Vitamin D deficiency is pretty common, especially among people further north. The changing advice on fat might help with that.

"Deficiency disease" in this context and Vitamin D means rickets.

And in addition to a one-a-day multivitamin multimineral tablet (split in two, each half in a different meal to improve absorption), I separately take 5,000 IU spread across all my meals, which has got my blood levels up to what they apparently should be. That's all the vitamin and mineral supplementation I take.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, I'm not sure that I do. There's a lot of research into what CO2 is doing, and a lot of people think it MUST be CO2. Where are all the other papers talking about how it can't be (or might be) refrigerants? I saw one paper saying that refrigerant concentrations and increasing temperatures are correlated and that author got excoriated as a "denier". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_refrigerants You'll notic…

Dude, I promise you that the reality I want to be true is not one where we have fucked up the earth's climate. I will only reiterate that if 1000 brain surgeons say X, you should probably believe X unless you have very particular reasons to believe you are way smarter than all of them and know things about brain surgery that they don't know. And of course once in a great while that happens. There was a guy who first…

Yeah I hear you loud and clear. I get it. You believe this to be true, and/or that the confidence interval is very tight. I think the confidence interval is large enough that "warming is caused by CO2 and we gotta stop" is plausible but not proven yet. How on earth do I have the arrogance to say this?

1. I'm trained as an engineer and a scientist. I've read a lot of papers and I've got a good grasp of significance.

2. I've seen experts be wrong before and I understand a lot of psychology to where I understand how they can be both wrong and fervently believe they're not. It took me two days to convince a biology professor (PhD) that he was performing a simple calculation incorrectly and that it was skewing all his results. He was doing log(A)/log(B) instead of log(A/B). It's the first rule: https://www.biogazelle.com/seven-tips-bio-statistical-analys...

3. Big models of big complex systems can have lots of interlinkages that aren't always apparent. If I let you analyze a Honda engine and come up with a model for it, if the engine never revved above I think 3000rpm you'd make a great model and have really high confidence that it was highly predictive. Then when revved to 6k and the engine diverged from the model you'd flip out and not understand what's going on until I told you that the engine has two different camshaft profiles and it can change between them. To you, who has only ever known that an engine has one camshaft profile and that it's fixed, this is madness!

I hope this analogy makes it clear that I don't think there's a big conspiracy but rather than a lot of people who are very earnest and very well meaning can get the wrong result through systematic problems that aren't immediately apparent.

I also think that some of those people might in their head say "look even if this isn't true, the risk that it COULD be true is so great -- I mean it's the whole planet! -- that we need to solve this problem anyhow" and then go ahead with that. And then they'll get extra impassioned because now they're on a mission to save the world! Can you imagine how motivating that would be?

The problem is that it seems like there's no downside: we fix CO2 and everything's great even if we didn't strictly speaking need to. The problem is that there is in fact a downside, a huge burden on everyone on the planet because we don't yet have cheap, reliable alternative energy sources. The first world only developed because of energy and it seems pretty shitty to deny the 3rd world the chance to develop because we don't want Venice to sink.

Personally I think that if you gave me the choice, to sink Venice and a few other cities and to bring the whole developing world up to developed world standards, that's a very tough choice. Is our art and investment in buildings more important than their lives?

Further the idea that tipping points exist which will catastrophically damage the climate is fair, but nobody's looking at it the other way either. Maybe there's some other linkage which will actually start to make the Earth shed heat faster once the temperature goes up three degrees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature_record#mediaviewer/...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature_record#mediaviewer/...

If these are accurate, then the Earth's climate is actually VERY stable and there must be restraining forces as well as tipping points.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And here is where the general population's mistrust in science makes us dig our own graves. You have all sorts of movements, from lobbies to NIMBYs to "environmentalist" organizations blocking transition to sustainable energy. And sadly, I just can't imagine a modern democracy really committing to an infrastructure project as big as rebuilding the power grid. We need more Elon Musks, who will push the right solutions…

Honestly, I agree. In some ways when I think about the future I feel very hopeful; advancements in narrow AI and medical technology in particular are very easy to imagine as beneficial. Mostly though I feel very cynical and depressed by what appears to be the cultivation of ignorance as a virtue. I am convinced that we are fucked, barring a massive breakthrough in photovoltaic efficiency or nuclear fusion.

> Mostly though I feel very cynical and depressed by what appears to be the cultivation of ignorance as a virtue. I am convinced that we are fucked, barring a massive breakthrough in photovoltaic efficiency or nuclear fusion.

I share that. I actually suffered a short-term deppressive period because of that (as weird as it sounds, for few months I felt guilty and afraid whenever I turned on the gas stove). We have maybe 50 years to fix worldwide energy usage if we want to maintain a technological civilization, and so far every attempt at that seems to be torpedoed by a combination of lobbies and ignorant fear-mongering.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...they must accept higher energy costs and possibly a reduced standard of living in order to combat a threat they cannot directly perceive." That's a tough one. From the perspective of a person whose livelihood depends on CO2-producing resources, or for whom the additional cost would push them into poverty, I can't blame them for feeling resistant - particularly when there is still debate as to the veracity, credib…

And here is where the general population's mistrust in science makes us dig our own graves. You have all sorts of movements, from lobbies to NIMBYs to "environmentalist" organizations blocking transition to sustainable energy. And sadly, I just can't imagine a modern democracy really committing to an infrastructure project as big as rebuilding the power grid. We need more Elon Musks, who will push the right solutions…

Maybe the better word for such people is 'practical'. Here in Iowa I see these boondoggle wind turbines being put up every day. They don't break even for decades. This 'sustainable' energy source is only sustained through federal subsidies. Makes you weep.
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