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SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

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Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#91

Post by xorcist »

savanaly wrote: post #34
colmvp wrote: post #12

So, I remember seeing this on Reddit a few weeks back. Some commenters mentioned that sweatshops are a necessary evil for developing nations. It's better to have a shitty job than to have the alternative of being jobless and resorting to theft/prostitution for sustenance. How true is such an argument?

One of my all time favorite pop economics essays is by Paul Krugman, addressing this topic: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/19... His argument is summed up thus: "And as long as you have no realistic alternative to industrialization based on low wages, to oppose it means that you are willing to deny desperately poor people the best chance they have of progress for the sake of what amounts to…

"No realistic alternative" -- that's a bit of a dishonest either/or argument. Of course there are alternatives. It's not like it hasn't happened before.

In the Western world this gave rise to the biggest social movement in a century, with demands to assure workers all kind of rights.

Krugman needs to motivate why we should deny third world children the same rights we demanded for our own a hundred and forty years ago, if he really wants to make that argument.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#92

Post by dublinben »

mcv wrote: post #77
bruna597 wrote: post #44

Something that bothers me is the fact that even though they have cried on the show and said that they were going to do something to help, if you search for them on the internet, its clear that they aren't doing anything about it! Even the girl who has a fashion blog, she is still writing about the trademarks that use this kind of abusive job to make their clothes...

Honestly, I don't think we should leave it to the occasional individual to do something about it. If we want to stop this, we should ban the import of products that do not meet our own labour standards. We have reasonable work weeks and healthy working conditions because we fought against that exploitation. But instead of stopping it, we ended up merely exporting it; we don't make our stuff here anymore, but it's mad…

>we should ban the import of products that do not meet our own labour standards

This is against the kind of international "free-trade" agreements and laws that every major country is a party to.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/08/23/business/company-news-us-b...

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#93

Post by jsprogrammer »

roel_v wrote: post #80
jsprogrammer wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if companies were scheduled to deliver all shares to the employees and customers over a period of time which was fixed at the time of incorporation?

Then what incentive would there be to start one, or to design a business model that will outlive said fixed time? Moreover, why don't the workers then just start the company in the first place?

>Then what incentive would there be to start one, or to design a business model that will outlive said fixed time?

Outside investors could still recoup their initial investment + gains. Those who start, design, and execute the business will be gaining the shares over time as they are employees (although, I'm not sure this would still be the right nomenclature) of the business. How about this question, "Why should an initial investor get an everlasting percentage of profits without continuous input?".

>Moreover, why don't the workers then just start the company in the first place?

Probably for the same reason they mostly don't now, they lack the financial resources.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#94

Post by mrottenkolber »

RaffRaff wrote: post #64
JonnieCache wrote: post #7

The BBC did their own version of this in 2008 called Blood Sweat and T Shirts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood,_Sweat_and_T-shirts The gimmick was that most of the kids were ludicrous pampered upper middle class fashion students with no sense of perspective, or at least the programme was edited to portray them as such. Much of the entertainment came from watching them subjected to backbreaking labor while their s…

They had to go all way to Asia for this? How about bricklaying jobs in eastern europe? How about factory workers in any country? Really, we all know life is not fair, but to go all way there to just cry and moan seems rude

I feel this point. I'd argue that these kids are rich even for Norwegian standards. You don't need a plane to see some stark contrasts. Just take tram 61 from Musikerviertel to Tannenbusch.[1]

1: A local (to me) tram line that leads from an expensive inner-city region to an affordable ghetto in under ten minutes. If you are born there (Tannenbusch) chances are you will spent most of your time there. If on the other hand, you are in Bonn to study at the local university, you probably don't know it exists.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#95

Post by dublinben »

roel_v wrote: post #80
jsprogrammer wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if companies were scheduled to deliver all shares to the employees and customers over a period of time which was fixed at the time of incorporation?

Then what incentive would there be to start one, or to design a business model that will outlive said fixed time? Moreover, why don't the workers then just start the company in the first place?

>why don't the workers then just start the company in the first place?

Lack of access to capital.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#96

Post by jsprogrammer »

alextgordon wrote: post #73
jsprogrammer wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if companies were scheduled to deliver all shares to the employees and customers over a period of time which was fixed at the time of incorporation?

I'm not opposed to it, but the brilliance of the German solution is to notice that full worker control is unnecessary. The workers don't need communism or full cooperatives. You can still have private owners and a profit motive. But the workers have to be equal to the owners, not subordinate.

How does this eliminate private ownership or profit motive? This model puts the ownership in the hands of those who execute the business and those who provide it with continuous capital (customers) while over time eliminating the rent-collectors.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#97

Post by JohnTHaller »

bruna597 wrote: post #44

Something that bothers me is the fact that even though they have cried on the show and said that they were going to do something to help, if you search for them on the internet, its clear that they aren't doing anything about it! Even the girl who has a fashion blog, she is still writing about the trademarks that use this kind of abusive job to make their clothes...

It's pretty typical human behavior. We all know multiple people (or are those people) that were horrified to learn about the poisonings, child labor, suicides, 16 hour days, and other conditions involved in the making of iPhones, yet still went out and bought the new one as soon as it came out.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#98

Post by foobar2020 »

I really don't understand this problem. Why does everybody think people in Asia are forced to do this kind of work? These people would be incredibly poor if not for western companies. Actually most of them would die being children as a result of their poverty: malnutrition, accidents, preventable diseases such as polio or measles.

Go now and check what was China's annual GDP per capita in Mao Zedong times. Just see it. Apparently a lot of people need this kind of basic history education.

Yaron Brook has more knowledge on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwb8m_ZbU-U&feature=youtu.be...

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#99

Post by jsprogrammer »

gwys wrote: post #74
jsprogrammer wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if companies were scheduled to deliver all shares to the employees and customers over a period of time which was fixed at the time of incorporation?

There actually was this kind of system in Sweden in the 80s. Of course it was very unpopular with the right and was abolished as soon as they got into power. Since then, like in most of the western world, the productivity gains has to a large extent favored owners rather than employees. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_funds

It's interesting that the link describes the critics argument as increasing the power of labo[u]r over the company. Why is it a bad thing for the people who are actually doing the work of the company to have control over the company? Why should labo[u]r be controlled by a third party force (neither labor nor the customers).

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#100

Post by Shivetya »

bruna597 wrote: post #44

Something that bothers me is the fact that even though they have cried on the show and said that they were going to do something to help, if you search for them on the internet, its clear that they aren't doing anything about it! Even the girl who has a fashion blog, she is still writing about the trademarks that use this kind of abusive job to make their clothes...

Slacktavism

It is not uncommon to see this played out over and over again. Far too many feel they have done their civic duty by expressing their "feels"

It is very much the same when people vote for something, say increasing minimum wage, because the direct cost to themselves is nothing whereas the real cost is losing small businesses who cannot bare the cost of some other persons fake generosity; after its only a book store that closes.

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