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SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

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Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#51

Post by iandundas »

duckingtest wrote: post #39
Kenji wrote: post #16

I wonder, how can we in the first world change our behaviour here to stop things like that? Does the very way we live cause this or are the causes local?

It's not that they're exploited. Cambodia's economy is just really, really inefficient. Food prices in Cambodia are really high (ep 4), higher even than in Berlin [0] by 21%, not to mention Eastern Europe (2+ times Warsaw's prices, 4x if you shop around). The sad thing is, the wages in sweatshops won't go up much. Sooner or later automation will advance to the point where even $3/day for sewing garments will be too h…

with regards to the numbeo figures: these are pretty offset by the high price of Milk, Bread, Cheese, Apples, Wine - all of which are non-native foods and would have to be imported to Cambodia (and which wouldn't be part of an average diet there). In fact, most of the foods there are non-native - potatoes? No-one's eating these either.

Local food types (rice, noodles, veg, SE Asian fruits) are ridiculously cheap in Cambodia, though could still very well be expensive in comparison to the wages..

edit: reading further, I'm not sure they've sourced those figures well at all, they don't ring true. 0.43€ for a bottle of water? Come on, that's nowhere near the local price unless you're buying it at your western hotel

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#52

Post by vetler »

chippy wrote: post #37
vetler wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In terms of a large profit making company, the company has to make ever increasing profits for the shareholders or else it becomes pretty much illegal. Thus, currently these conditions are necessary, there is nothing to stop them, because to stop them means that a corporation is not operating properly. This is just bullshit, for lack of a better word. First of all, increasing profits does not force anyone to do hor…

Thanks for the link, I was wrong on the legal point, but it's not all bullshit. From that thread: "They don't get punished for not maximizing shareholder value. But it is true that maximizing value needs to be their goal and they may not be negligent in the pursuit of that goal." It also confirms that a corporation must in general make an effort to maximise profits, if that is what the shareholders want. So, we shoul…

It doesn't have to be the shareholders responsibility to tell directors that, the directors can even just assume that - as they should. Big companies don't all set out to ruin the world just to make money, and I'm not saying that is your opinion, but I get the feeling that this is sometimes implied when discussing how to maximize profits.

Companies even donate money to charity, without any concern for short term profits.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#53

Post by duckingtest »

iandundas wrote: post #51
duckingtest wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that they're exploited. Cambodia's economy is just really, really inefficient. Food prices in Cambodia are really high (ep 4), higher even than in Berlin [0] by 21%, not to mention Eastern Europe (2+ times Warsaw's prices, 4x if you shop around). The sad thing is, the wages in sweatshops won't go up much. Sooner or later automation will advance to the point where even $3/day for sewing garments will be too h…

with regards to the numbeo figures: these are pretty offset by the high price of Milk, Bread, Cheese, Apples, Wine - all of which are non-native foods and would have to be imported to Cambodia (and which wouldn't be part of an average diet there). In fact, most of the foods there are non-native - potatoes? No-one's eating these either. Local food types (rice, noodles, veg, SE Asian fruits) are ridiculously cheap in C…

>Local food types (rice, noodles, veg, SE Asian fruits) are ridiculously cheap in Cambodia

What's the price for 1kg of rice there?

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#54

Post by duncans »

JonnieCache wrote: post #7

The BBC did their own version of this in 2008 called Blood Sweat and T Shirts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood,_Sweat_and_T-shirts The gimmick was that most of the kids were ludicrous pampered upper middle class fashion students with no sense of perspective, or at least the programme was edited to portray them as such. Much of the entertainment came from watching them subjected to backbreaking labor while their s…

My kids love Show Me What You're Made Of on CBBC (BBC channel for school-kids aged 6-12)

> "Five children travel across the world to live and work alongside the people who make the everyday items they take for granted."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/shows/show-me-what-youre-made-of

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#55

Post by jsprogrammer »

alextgordon wrote: post #49
chippy wrote: post #25

In terms of a large profit making company, the company has to make ever increasing profits for the shareholders or else it becomes pretty much illegal. Thus, currently these conditions are necessary, there is nothing to stop them, because to stop them means that a corporation is not operating properly. It is necessary because to not allow it means that a corporation is behaving badly. Like it or not, and in this exam…

I'd argue the Germans have the best solution. Employees must be involved in running the company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination

What if companies were scheduled to deliver all shares to the employees and customers over a period of time which was fixed at the time of incorporation?

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#56

Post by michaelcampbell »

colmvp wrote: post #12

So, I remember seeing this on Reddit a few weeks back. Some commenters mentioned that sweatshops are a necessary evil for developing nations. It's better to have a shitty job than to have the alternative of being jobless and resorting to theft/prostitution for sustenance. How true is such an argument?

There's a good arc in NPR's Planet Money that touches on this angle. Not necessarily the need for this labor, but how the work travels around developing nations and what it means.

I forget the title, but the series is essentially how they design a T-Shirt for the show, then follow how it's made; from the cotton harvesting up to the final shipping container hitting the US. It should be easy to locate.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#57

Post by josefresco »

sjtrny wrote: post #18
colmvp wrote: post #12

So, I remember seeing this on Reddit a few weeks back. Some commenters mentioned that sweatshops are a necessary evil for developing nations. It's better to have a shitty job than to have the alternative of being jobless and resorting to theft/prostitution for sustenance. How true is such an argument?

It is definitely not a neccesary evil. Minimum wage in those countries could be increased (or one created and enforced) so that there is a dramatic improvement on the workers lives without much of an impact on the end consumer. Consider how cheap a t-shirt is in the U.S. However politicians are scared since they think it will drive business out of their country. Or they are corrupt.

What about the people who don't work at the factory? Do they get a pay raise too?

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#58

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

lukasm wrote: post #32
colmvp wrote: post #12

So, I remember seeing this on Reddit a few weeks back. Some commenters mentioned that sweatshops are a necessary evil for developing nations. It's better to have a shitty job than to have the alternative of being jobless and resorting to theft/prostitution for sustenance. How true is such an argument?

Sadly, it is true. If you increase min wage in one country, the business will move to another. You would need to increase it everywhere. Assuming that's possible you would still need to deal with corruption. What makes things worse (at least short term) it's automation. In 10 years robots will do this kind of job. Historically, all nations developed with this brutal process. Many without minimum wage.

>What makes things worse (at least short term) it's automation.

Automation isn't the boogey man, we are.

>In 10 years robots will do this kind of job.

That may not be true if there is a willing supply of practically free labor.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#59

Post by rjaco31 »

perdunov wrote: post #50
bruna597 wrote: post #44

Something that bothers me is the fact that even though they have cried on the show and said that they were going to do something to help, if you search for them on the internet, its clear that they aren't doing anything about it! Even the girl who has a fashion blog, she is still writing about the trademarks that use this kind of abusive job to make their clothes...

This is probably the normal animal/human reaction: to react only when something is hurting you right now. If you take the pain away, the motivation vapors. This is one of the design flaws of the human mind inherited from animals that causes procrastination and lack of willpower.

> procrastination and lack of willpower.

Well, it's one way to look at it. The other is to consider that the human mind is extremely adaptive and optimize the energy cost given the context.

Re: SWEATSHOP – I can´t take any more

#60

Post by Cederfjard »

johnchristopher wrote: post #22
CmonDev wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no guaranteed minimum income even in developed nations (not even with those huge debts). Most likely thing to happen is that those sweatshops will become automated and the population will have to drop to pre-industrialisation levels.

There seems to exist a tendency to move sweatshops to countries with less effective work(er) protection laws rather than automating jobs (eg: from China to Vietnam and so on).

Yes, but that is under current circumstances, which will probably not remain fixed forever, right? How long before that dynamic changes and automation is suddenly better, closer to home AND cheaper?
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