The curious case of disappearing Polish S • Hacker News Board

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#11

Post by qewrffewqwfqew » Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 3:23 AM UTC

derekp7 wrote: post #8

seppo0010 wrote: post #7

I think the article is too verbose when knowing the context the bug is trivial: you intercepted meta+s and ctrl+s and in the way you broke alt+s. I find the save dialog useless for web browsers as well, but I think preventing its use is a bad idea in general. Overriding the browser's shortcut is uncomfortable. For example, wordpress likes to capture cmd+ to change the font style, but that's how I usually change the a…

But the article explains why they override ctrl-s. It is because the users had muscle memory to keep hitting ctrl-s to save, since they were used to not having an auto-save function built in. But more than that, is the idea of a web browser as an app delivery platform. If a web browser is running an app (such as a word processor, or spreadsheet, or anything but browsing the web) it is sometimes necessary and benefici…

.. another relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1479/

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#12

Post by voltagex_ » Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 4:31 AM UTC

seppo0010 wrote: post #7

I think the article is too verbose when knowing the context the bug is trivial: you intercepted meta+s and ctrl+s and in the way you broke alt+s. I find the save dialog useless for web browsers as well, but I think preventing its use is a bad idea in general. Overriding the browser's shortcut is uncomfortable. For example, wordpress likes to capture cmd+ to change the font style, but that's how I usually change the a…

The actual bug was trivial, the backstory was really interesting - it's the kind of thing you'd hear about on the 99% Invisible podcast. Sometimes verbosity is nice, after all, who doesn't like to share a good bug-hunt story?

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#13

Post by voltagex_ » Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 4:31 AM UTC

kosma wrote: post #4

I initially planned to put a TL;DR here, but it's the best bug analysis I've seen in months - a pleasure to read! - so I'm leaving it for others to savour. The very same bug used to be present in early Windows mobile GPU drivers - with global hotkeys making it impossible to enter Ł (with Intel GMA 950) and Ć (with ATI Catalyst). Being a Polish geek, I used to earn lots of free dinners from frustrated friends who were…

Did the drivers (or tray apps) bind those keys? What for?

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#14

Post by takeda » Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 5:04 AM UTC

seppo0010 wrote: post #7

I think the article is too verbose when knowing the context the bug is trivial: you intercepted meta+s and ctrl+s and in the way you broke alt+s. I find the save dialog useless for web browsers as well, but I think preventing its use is a bad idea in general. Overriding the browser's shortcut is uncomfortable. For example, wordpress likes to capture cmd+ to change the font style, but that's how I usually change the a…

Not mention the sites that hijack "/" for their search. I don't think there's a single site that hijacked keys which ended up being a good idea (at least from my experience).

I think browsers need option to disable key hijacking.

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#15

Post by blahedo » Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 5:20 AM UTC

I do not have sufficient profanity in my verbal arsenal for websites that override basic, fundamental browser behaviour because they think they know better than I do what I actually meant to do. I have noticed Medium being a regular perpetrator of this sort of broken behaviour before.

That one of the developers at Medium could run into such a glowing example of one of the many reasons it's nasty to override browser behaviour, and take the lesson from it that oh hey, we just need to make our override logic more complicated... the blindness and idiocy and sheer bloodymindedness of this response I just can't even.

Medium: YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#16

Post by cuu508 » Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 5:25 AM UTC

qewrffewqwfqew wrote: post #10

Yet another example of why websites shouldn't be able to hijack keys that have meaning outside them (in the browser itself, or in the desktop environment). It still blows my mind that browsers permit this and don't provide an easy option to stop such abusive (and dangerous!) behaviour. The workaround is typical of web stuff as well: deal with the symptoms one by one while leaving the underlying problem unquestioned.

Even without web stuff there are many apps, and there is one keyboard and there are going to be key binding conflicts.

Webapps may need low(er) level access to keyboard for legit reasons too. Years ago I was working on webapp that teaches 10-finger typing. It needed to know 'pressed' states of keys like Shift and Alt. There were various browser differences to work around. Luckily the app didn't need to support Polish layout.

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#17

Post by na85 » Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 5:35 AM UTC

blahedo wrote: post #15

I do not have sufficient profanity in my verbal arsenal for websites that override basic, fundamental browser behaviour because they think they know better than I do what I actually meant to do. I have noticed Medium being a regular perpetrator of this sort of broken behaviour before. That one of the developers at Medium could run into such a glowing example of one of the many reasons it's nasty to override browser b…

It's a symptom of this latest "push all functionality to javascript" fad, and I can't wait until people wake up to the fact that it's just this generation's Flash.

In-browser WYSIWYG or markdown editing is not good UX design. Period. Full stop. It's never been better than an offline text editor, and when you try to present a cross-browser experience, this is what inevitably happens.

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#18

Post by na85 » Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 5:37 AM UTC

takeda wrote: post #14

seppo0010 wrote: post #7

I think the article is too verbose when knowing the context the bug is trivial: you intercepted meta+s and ctrl+s and in the way you broke alt+s. I find the save dialog useless for web browsers as well, but I think preventing its use is a bad idea in general. Overriding the browser's shortcut is uncomfortable. For example, wordpress likes to capture cmd+ to change the font style, but that's how I usually change the a…

Not mention the sites that hijack "/" for their search. I don't think there's a single site that hijacked keys which ended up being a good idea (at least from my experience). I think browsers need option to disable key hijacking.

God, I'm glad I haven't run into these sites. There needs to be a browser extension to prevent this.

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#19

Post by arjie » Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 5:45 AM UTC

blahedo wrote: post #15

I do not have sufficient profanity in my verbal arsenal for websites that override basic, fundamental browser behaviour because they think they know better than I do what I actually meant to do. I have noticed Medium being a regular perpetrator of this sort of broken behaviour before. That one of the developers at Medium could run into such a glowing example of one of the many reasons it's nasty to override browser b…

What is the right approach to have the in-browser editor save? Users may want to manually trigger a save because it makes them feel safe before they close a browser tab.

Re: The curious case of disappearing Polish S

#20

Post by colinplamondon » Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 5:47 AM UTC

takeda wrote: post #14

seppo0010 wrote: post #7

I think the article is too verbose when knowing the context the bug is trivial: you intercepted meta+s and ctrl+s and in the way you broke alt+s. I find the save dialog useless for web browsers as well, but I think preventing its use is a bad idea in general. Overriding the browser's shortcut is uncomfortable. For example, wordpress likes to capture cmd+ to change the font style, but that's how I usually change the a…

Not mention the sites that hijack "/" for their search. I don't think there's a single site that hijacked keys which ended up being a good idea (at least from my experience). I think browsers need option to disable key hijacking.

It'd drive me crazy if Gmail _didn't_ do that. Love the keyboard shortcuts, including and especially the ones that override. Highly productive compared to the alternative.